11.20.09
Posted in Atheist/Christian Cooperation, General at 6:00 am by Hemant Mehta
There are some atheist blogs out there which treat religious readers and commenters with complete contempt.
I try to stay away from that — and it’s always nice reading comments by atheists on this site that show religious people some kindness and empathy — but no doubt it seeps in from time to time.
Greta Christina believes that when religious people visit atheist websites (or read skeptical magazines or atheist books), they are making their first steps toward atheism whether they know it or not. And we ought to help them with that journey.
… They’re proto-atheists. Any formerly-religious atheist knows that these kinds of doubts and questions and investigations are the first cracks in the foundation of faith. These folks — some of them, anyway, maybe a lot of them — are taking their first steps to atheism.
So what does this mean for atheists?
I think it means we have to be patient.
…
Patience doesn’t mean letting ourselves be kicked around. What it means is remembering that we’re talking to human beings, and treating them as such. It means being rigorously careful about critiquing ideas and beliefs without insulting people… It means remembering that it’s not fair to treat people like they’re stupid just because they’re not familiar with the ideas we’re so intimately familiar with. It means keeping in mind how hard it can be to let go of religion. It means remembering that we’re asking people to abandon a form of comfort they’ve relied on for years… and are asking them to make themselves into one of the most hated groups in the world, and quite possibly to alienate their family and friends, while they’re at it.
Sometimes, treating religious people (and their beliefs) with anything but spite is unbelievably difficult. But it’s necessary if we want to persuade anyone to consider our views.
Greta wrote that after reading a posting by Sarah Braasch at Daylight Atheism — Both pieces are great reads and well worth a few minutes of your time.
Permalink ~
10.15.09
Posted in Atheist/Christian Cooperation, General at 1:00 pm by Hemant Mehta
It can be frustrating to talk to religious people, and Z at It’s the Thought That Count isn’t sure how worthwhile dialogue is:
If everybody else gets to express their side, I want to express mine. At the same time, the dialogue seems futile. Nobody’s going to change their mind, and it doesn’t even feel like we’re speaking the same language. It just makes me exhausted and depressed, and obviously that’s no good either.
He has a point. Neither side is going to compromise on beliefs.
What has kept me relatively sane in the matter is that I try to focus the conversation on things we can agree on.
I talk about the need for separation of church and state, the importance of teaching kids to question their beliefs and seek out their own answers (Christians, of course, think this will lead them toward faith), the lack of politicians who represent our constituency, why we need to keep forced religion out of public schools, the myriad cases of discrimination against atheists, etc.
I talk about the need for them to take those ideas back to their churches and pastors. They have a hard time saying no to those ideas above. So that’s where I keep my focus.
It’s more important to me that Christians get on board with those ideas than whether they believe in a god or not.
If I’m talking to someone who already is with me on those issues, only then do we get into the godtalk and debate how much sense it makes to believe in the supernatural. At least that way, it’s not a total loss if I walk away frustrated.
What advice do you have for talking with theists?
Permalink ~
09.01.09
Posted in Advice, Atheist/Christian Cooperation, Coming Out, General, Richard Wade at 4:00 pm by Richard Wade
Dear Richard,
Over the last few years my beliefs have changed drastically from fundamentalist Christian (since childhood) to staunch atheist. There came a certain point in which I finally shed my fear-based beliefs and overcame my indoctrination to religion and embraced rational and free thought. It was a painful internal struggle but I felt relieved and liberated after finally shedding old superstitions, which conflicted with reason and logic.
“Coming out” as an atheist is by far the hardest part. I was married before I became an atheist, and am married to a very strong Christian woman. I love her very much, but confessing my new belief to her has caused great distress and exposed some weak spots in our marriage, as I find it difficult to talk openly about my beliefs in fear of how she might react. In the past years, I have expressed my “doubts” to her; but at the time I was speaking as a Christian. At the time it was nothing but a minor “phase” I was going through as a conflicted Christian.
However, over time I have completely abandoned my Christian faith. I could no longer keep it bottled up inside and I felt that I had to be honest with her about my beliefs. She did not react as I had hoped. I had hoped I would be able to have a calm, rational, and logical discussion with her. Instead, she became very upset and threw things at me in anger and betrayal. In a way I do I feel like I had betrayed her; as I had mainly kept it inside as an internal struggle. Unfortunately it was a struggle in which I could not anticipate the outcome.
To complicate matters, we will be having our first child soon. On the rare occasion in which we do talk about it, she mentions things like “I can’t live like this” or “how are we going to raise our kids?” or “I can’t live in an atheist household” which makes me think she is going to divorce me because of my drastic change in beliefs. That is an outcome I am terrified of, as we will be having a child soon and I have made it clear I did not want to get divorced.
I have tried to present to her some books I have read, in hope she would see where I was coming from and understand my reasons. On the flip side I have agreed to read some Christian books at her request, although I remain unconvinced, I read them anyway.
It feels like a one-way street. I know I cannot force my beliefs on her, or expect a sudden “conversion” to atheism (after all, my gradual shift into atheism progressed over 3 years). I know I will have to be patient, but I find it difficult to even talk about it because I am afraid she will call it quits.
I have no idea what to do and no one to talk to.
-Bad Timing
Dear Bad Timing,
I’m taking from your letter that your primary goal is to preserve your marriage, so my advice will be toward that goal.
As they developed, you told your wife about your doubts. Later, you told her about your complete loss of belief. She did not receive that one well, but you did manage to tell her where you stand. So your truth is basically told, even though she may not fully understand or accept it yet.
The main challenge here is fear. Your wife is afraid of whatever she imagines the word “atheist” means, and you are afraid of what she will do as a result of her fear. But both of you giving in to your fears and avoiding talking will not solve this problem. She is throwing tantrums and you are shutting down what you need to say. Turning away from what we fear only means that it will come up from behind us. Turning away from a problem makes us unable to see it clearly, and unable to see that it has solutions.
Before you begin talking with her, you need to be crystal clear with yourself what your purpose will be in further discussions about this. If you have in the back of your mind even a tiny motive of getting her to eventually agree with your views, rid yourself of that. If she ever becomes an atheist, that must be entirely from inside her, just as your process has been entirely your own. Any attempt to sway her to your opinion of religion will likely result in a divorce.
So do not try for agreement, only work toward understanding. Your only goal should be to give her assurance that despite this difference, your marriage can still be a strong and happy one, and that you can work out mutually acceptable arrangements.
As I’ve said before, (and readers, forgive me for the repetition) begin, continue and conclude with “I love you.” Tell her that you have confidence that both of you are mature enough to talk about this, and that together you will be able to find your way forward. Promise her that you do not have any intention to try to change her beliefs about God or Christianity, you only want to help her see that you will remain the good husband you have always been. Reassure her that you are still the same man you were before you changed your views on religion. You loved her then, and you love her now. You were a good man then, and you are a good man now. Your character, your morals and ethics are measured by what you do, not by what you think. Regardless of your innermost thoughts, you have been and will continue to be a good husband. After all, she didn’t notice this change in you; you had to tell her.
Next, you’ll need to address specific fearful thoughts and assumptions that she may have. To do this, you will need some communication skills. Most of good communicating is not about speaking skillfully, but about listening skillfully. This is sometimes called “active listening.”
Listen to her for the meaning and the feeling, without planning your rebuttal in the back of your mind. Just listen attentively, and reflect back to her a few of her own phrases that help her to know that you are understanding her meaning and her feeling. This will help to draw out of her what is difficult for her to articulate or to simply say aloud. Do not agree or disagree until she is fully finished. When she is done, briefly state in your own words what she has told you, and amend it as she corrects any details. So far, you’ve said nothing about your own thoughts, and she feels satisfied that she has been fully and accurately heard.
In your responses, take one fearful idea at a time. For instance, your wife may tell you about some preconceived ideas she has of what atheists are about. After listening and reflecting very carefully, tell her what your atheism means for you. Avoid using terms like “superstition” or other words about her religion that may carry an insult to her. Just focus on your own thought process, saying that you came to need more to be convinced than you have so far found. I expect that her scary assumption will be soothed by your simple explanation.
Gently find out what exactly she means by “I can’t live like this.” Live like what? Listen to the scary scenario, and then let her know that the two of you will be essentially living just as you always have been, with the possible exception of you not going with her to church. Many strong marriages have that arrangement, and it does not have to be a source of constant tension or resentment.
Another statement you have quoted from her is, “I can’t live in an atheist household.” Lovingly find out what does she imagine an “atheist household” is like. Then tell her you don’t want an atheist household, you want a loving and open household, where both of you can be free to believe as you need to believe, and where, while you may not agree on everything, you still understand and respect each other.
Finally, her question, “How are we going to raise our kids?” is a legitimate and important question. The life of your child will keep the two of you linked for the rest of your lives, whether you remain married or not. Think it out carefully ahead of time and have a suggestion that you think will work for both of you. Be willing to negotiate. I do not think that there is one single best formula for this issue. There are many possible arrangements and agreements that people in similar marriages have made, and with patience and maturity they can work. Here is another post about a Christian/atheist couple, Erik and Kate. They frequently post comments here, and if they read this, they may have some insights to offer. There are several comments on that post dealing with the issue of raising children, and you might find some helpful ideas there as well.
This may take more than one sit-down. Such active listening and earnest sharing can be exhausting. Whenever you need to rest, mutually agree to resume at a specific time. Don’t just say that you’ll talk again soon. You both may be tempted to keep putting it off. Punctuate your sessions with your love for her and your gratitude for the effort she is putting into them.
If there is still too much tension to do this, then I recommend conjoint marriage counseling. It should be neutral on questions of religion, having nothing to do with changing one person’s beliefs to match the other’s. The counselor should play the role of communication coach and referee, helping the two of you to take turns actively listening, honestly sharing and working out solutions.
If that is also not possible, there is one other approach that can at least get your thoughts and feelings expressed without being interrupted or turned into a fight by emotional outbursts and fits of temper. Write her a long, caring letter. Gryph, a reader of Friendly Atheist made a very good suggestion of this method for similarly mixed couples, and it is posted here. This might work to serve as an ice breaker, with face-to-face discussions later.
Bad Timing, although there is tension and anxiety in your relationship right now, this could be the beginning of much better times for both of you. You will both be more relaxed because you are able to just be who you are, and both of you will have practiced good communication skills which will be very valuable when the complexities of raising a child, dealing with an adolescent and negotiating with a young adult each come in their stages.
I feel confident that with large quantities of patience and effort in equal measure, your marriage and your family will thrive. I have not encountered a single marriage or family, including my own, that did not require copious amounts of those two qualities. Marriages and families are the most difficult, most complex and most amazing things that people ever do. They are hard work. The highest joys and the deepest sorrows come from them. We have to accept the whole package. Some of those joys and sorrows are inevitable, and some we can influence for the better with our willingness, humility and courage. I wish you, your wife and your child a wonderful journey together.
Richard
You may send your questions for Richard to 
. All questions will eventually be answered, but not all can be published. There is a large number of requests; please be patient.
Permalink ~
08.25.09
Posted in Atheist/Christian Cooperation, General, Jesse Galef, Politics, Secular Coalition for America at 4:02 pm by Jesse Galef
This post is by Jesse Galef, who works for the Secular Coalition for America. He also blogs at Rant & Reason
…
When Bruce Ledewitz (author of “Hallowed Secularism”) found out who I work for, he said with a grin that soon we would soon consider people like him, not the religious right, to be our worst enemy. He and I might be intellectual opponents at the worst, for Bruce is far too nice of a person to consider a true ‘enemy.’
Of course, it would be easier to be an intellectual opponent if I better knew what idea I was opposing. The strawmen arguments and strange non sequiturs leave me wondering quite who he’s attacking – atheists? secularists? nihilists? moral relativists? As I complained last post, none of the terms used are well-defined or explained. A quarter of the way through his book, I still don’t have a good sense of what he means by “religious” or “meaningful” – vital to an understanding of his argument.
Which brings me to one of his recent posts on his blog, HallowedSecularism. Bruce writes:
8/21/2009—I have run into a problem I did not expect: secularists accepting religious fundamentalism’s definition of God.
My constitutional law proposal is that government may use certain religious images, such as the word God in the Pledge of Allegiance, when that religious image has nonreligious and broad meaning. For example, “One Nation, Under God” can mean we recognize that there are objective and enduring standards of right and wrong that are binding on this country.
To this proposal, in addition to other criticisms, Frederick Clarkson responded in the Pittsburgh City Paper, “It’s preposterous, God means God. It doesn’t mean ‘universal values’”.
This objection is now being repeated in blog postings discussing the netroots nation panel, for example the Friendly Atheist : “God is a deity”.
Words are tools used to point to ideas. Their meaning comes from a shared convention and understanding that a particular word points to a certain idea. Overwhelmingly, the word “God” points to a supernatural entity – even more so when it’s capitalized. When a person uses the word to refer to other concepts it’s typically an attempt to absorb the power and authority of the existing institutions and associations.
The majority of Americans to tell pollsters that they believe in God when they don’t actually share the same beliefs on any level – they just all refer to something as “God”. Because of that confusion, the real disagreements are glossed over. Heck, we atheists could refer to my delicious waffles as “God” and say that we believe in God too! (I wonder how many google hits I would get for Trans-fat-substantiation…)
Yes, there are words that can point to more than one idea. That’s why we look at context and intent – to know which common meaning the speaker is using. What could possibly imply that the 1950s congress was thinking “One Nation Under Objective and Enduring Standards of Right and Wrong” any more than a student is telling his teacher to suck a rooster?
It’s extremely frustrating when the constructive ambiguity of words creates the illusion of agreement. From wikipedia:
[Constructive ambiguity] refers to the deliberate use of ambiguous language on a sensitive issue in order to advance some political purpose. Constructive ambiguity is often disparaged as fudging. It might be employed in a negotiation, both to disguise an inability to resolve a contentious issue on which the parties remain far apart, and to do so in a manner that enables each to claim obtaining some concession on it. It warrants further hopes that the ensuing postponement of resolution on this particular point, in a way that causes neither side excessive discomfort, will enable them to make real progress on other matters. If this progress takes place, the unresolved question might be revisited at a later date, if not voided altogether by the passage of time. On the other hand, since ambiguity in agreements can generate subsequent controversy, the likelihood of its employment proving constructive in comparison to further attempts to negotiate the point in question in clear terms, is a question best left for historians.
Given this context, I think the use of fuzzy words and constructive ambiguity just prolong the confusion.
Permalink ~
08.12.09
Posted in Atheist/Christian Cooperation, General, Pseudoscience at 11:00 am by Hemant Mehta
Among the 300+ group visiting the Creation Museum last week were Aaron Gardner and his wife. They are both evangelical Christians.
Aaron says he wanted to answer the question: “What would it be like to be a Christian and a fly on the wall as a group of atheists peered at exhibits that attempted to prove them wrong?”
I’ll admit, that’s a pretty cool experiment on his end. Almost like an atheist visiting churches…
So, after he put on his Secular Student Alliance nametag, what did he find?
He was appalled at the way other Christians treated us atheists.
… While I did not have a T-shirt (a symbol anyway) it was obvious that there was a distinctive way that we were being treated because of the shared identification. There were hateful glances, exaggerated perceptions, waxing surveillance by security, and anxious but strong ‘amens’ accompanying a lecture on “The Ultimate Proof of Creation” by Dr. Jason Lisle.
Is this how Christians treat people? Is this how we follow Jesus’ commandment to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us? I cannot help but think that many Christians are fearful of atheists. It is a sort of xenophobia that runs along lines of faith and belief. What we tend to forget is that atheists, agnostics, and evolutionists are people too. If our attempt to preserve our belief means that we are treating these people like animals, are we really holding up principles that are based on a creation worldview?
There have rarely been times in my life that I have been ashamed of people that I call “brothers and sisters in Christ.” This was one of them…
Thanks for stepping in our shoes, Aaron.
I hope he can take that message back to his church and Christian friends.
(via Prometheus Unbound)
Permalink ~
08.06.09
Posted in Atheist Advertising, Atheist/Christian Cooperation, General, Richard Wade at 4:25 pm by Richard Wade
Richard Wade here.
I’ve spent a long time on this blog trying to have and to promote respectful dialogues with the many Christians who visit. Many of you have expressed your appreciation of my courteous approach. I now want to spend some of that “social capital” by respectfully issuing you a challenge, and by making an appeal:
CHRISTIANS!
DO YOU STAND UP FOR FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND RELIGION OR NOT?
Your truthful answer is not shown by your words but by your actions. Yet again, another atheist bus ad has been unfairly and illegally banned, this time in Des Moines, Iowa. What are you going to do to protest and to correct this? We are what we do. Our words mean nothing without actions.
You are free to worship and express yourself as you wish only because of the First Amendment. If not for that, you would not be practicing the particular faith that you are. You’d be worshiping whatever way the government dictated, and I’m sure you wouldn’t like it. You are free only because we are all free to follow our consciences.
This is your liberty that is being threatened, not just that of atheists. In the comfort of their majority, most Christians blithely take it for granted, accepting the benefit but not paying anything back in responsibility, like spoiled children. All of us must defend our freedoms, not just those who are being trampled upon on any given day. If it is okay to stifle one group, soon enough it will be okay to stifle your group. If you, as the majority don’t stand up to things like this, then you, more than others will richly deserve the suppression that will eventually smother us all. The battle for all our rights is not in Iraq, it’s right here. In Iowa.
Christians: At the very least I ask you to do this:
Read Hemant’s post to understand the story, click on the links there to phone, email or write DART, identify yourself as a Christian and tell them that as a Christian you demand that the atheist bus ads be replaced back on the buses immediately. Then post your comment here telling us what you did or did not do, and why. If you have already commented there about an action you took, copy and paste it here. If you don’t think you should have to do anything about this, then have the courage to tell us why not.
Atheists: Please hold back your comments for a while and let the Christians comment here so we can readily see what, if any, response they have.
Permalink ~
08.01.09
Posted in Atheist/Christian Cooperation, General at 5:00 pm by Hemant Mehta
It’s rare I read an interview where every question is interesting and the responses are even better.
Internetmonk interviewed atheist Valerie Tarico and the exchange is great reading for both religious and non-religious people.
Specifically, the interview is aimed at evangelical Christians. Internetmonk lays out why that is:
1. Evangelicals are constantly mischaracterizing non-theists. We need to listen and not preach.
2. There is some common ground of concern here for many of us, especially in the area of the ethical practices of religions that seek to convert.
3. We need to measure our responses against reality. Some of our typical talking points aren’t very impressive, so we might consider retiring or reworking them.
4. I want to build a bridge. Dr. Tarico is very open to that kind of dialog.
Here’s just one bit:
When you see a church spending large amounts of money on children’s ministries and activities, do you believe this is ethical or unethical? Why?
If you heard that Scientologists were spending large amounts of money on outreach to kids would you believe this was ethical or unethical? What if they offered a subsidized summer camp to inner city kids like Child Evangelism Fellowship does? What if they had a storefront alcohol-free bar for underage skateboarders like City Church does in Ballard, Washington? What if they had teenage tutors slipping colorful invitation cards to kids in public middle schools like Foursquare Church does in Seattle?
Children are hard wired to be credulous, to believe what they are told by adults who have authority over them and who nurture them. It’s the only efficient way for them to pick up all the information they need. They can’t afford to question and test when we tell them stoves burn you or cars squish you, so they’re built to trust us. Because they are vulnerable in this way, we have a particular responsibility not to exploit or abuse that trust. If you believe the exclusive salvific claims of Christian orthodoxy, then the end justifies the means. That, I think is at the heart of children’s ministries. But it’s only fair to admit that children are being offered metaphorical candy – and the ultimate goal of conversion isn’t always up front. One Jewish neighbor sent her daughter to a playful, wholesome youth group at a local mega church because she thought “nondenominational” meant interfaith.
(Thanks to Emma for the link!)
Permalink ~
07.24.09
Posted in Atheist Generosity, Atheist/Christian Cooperation, General at 4:00 am by Hemant Mehta
Dale McGowan’s working on a website for Foundation Beyond Belief, an organization that will focus on humanist generosity and allow for charitable giving from atheists.
One web design firm Dale looked into sent him this letter in response to his inquiry:
Hi Dale,
I appreciate the time you took to fill out our website questionnaire. Unfortunately, I don’t think we are a good fit for developing your website as we are committed Christians. I think it would be difficult for us to give our all to a website promoting values and beliefs with which we don’t agree.
Thanks again for your time. I hope you understand my reasons for declining your request.
M___
Dale’s response is a polite, respectful, silent-but-deadly slap-in-the-face that is an absolute joy to read.
I don’t know how anyone could’ve phrased it better.
(via The Meming of Life)
Permalink ~
07.22.09
Posted in Atheist/Christian Cooperation, College Atheists, Dating, General at 4:00 pm by Hemant Mehta
I wrote about Kate and Erik a while back — they’re the atheist and Christian couple who found a way to make their relationship work. Both comment on this site frequently.
There’s a bit of an update…
They’re engaged!
I take full credit, of course. (The first child better be named Hemant.)
Congratulations to them 
Permalink ~
« Previous entries Next Page » Next Page »
