Posted by Hemant Mehta in When I’m in hotel rooms, I never know what to do with the Gideon Bibles. Obviously the “normal” answer would be to do nothing– Just ignore it.
But since it’s there, I feel like I *need* to do something as an atheist.
I’ve known atheists who, at one time or another, have done the following:
- Take the Bible with them.
- Put it in the garbage can.
- Take the Bible with them to a different location and then put it in the garbage can (so the maids won’t just put it back in the drawer).
- Put a funny message in it, sign it “Love, God,” and give it to someone as a present.
- Put a warning label on it.
- Put a handout/list of the crazier passages in the Bible for future guests.
- Bring a copy of Charles Darwin’s The Origin of Species or the Constitution to place next to the Bible.
- Call the hotel in advance and tell them they don’t want a Bible in their room.
On a side note, if you really want to annoy an atheist at a convention or large gathering, grab the Bibles from your friends’ rooms and toss them all in one person’s drawer. When the person opens the drawer up (and he most certainly will), he’ll see 98498123 Bibles waiting for him. Take pictures. Laugh.
I’m sure a lot of people think this whole conversation is just plain stupid. And it very well might be.
But what is the proper thing to do with the Bible? If the consensus answer is to do nothing, I’ll abide by that.
Also, if someone does take the Gideon Bible, is it considered stealing?
[tags]atheist, atheism, Gideon Bible, God, Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species, Constitution[/tags]
I think the answer would be to ask yourself: “If I left atheist literature here in the hotel room for the benefit of others, what would I want a Christian who came across it to do with it?”
Whatever you decide you’d want them to do to your stuff, do that.
(BTW, no it’s not stealing to take a Gideons Bible. That’s what they hope you’ll do with them.
)
I haven’t stayed in very many hotel rooms, but the few that I have stayed in, I have used two of these techniques.
In one, I took the Bible home with me. I’ve still got it sitting on my shelf somewhere.
In another case, I highlighted a lot of the more violent passages (like Elisha’s bears) and also made some comments regarding Gods probable nonexistence in the inside of the book cover.
I like the idea of putting a copy of Origin of the Species in there, too. Sadly, I doubt anyone would read it. (After all, so few Christians read the Bible, let alone science books!)
I used to sign Jesus’ name in the front like it was an autograph.
To my #1 fan, john, JC
I figured there’s be at least one John who’d see it.
It actually came in quite handy for me - I was writing a review of a Christian apologetics book at the time, and used the hotel Gideon to look up some of the more glaringly unflattering passages that the book chose to pretend didn’t exist.
ROFL! I don’t find this a stupid conversation. I think it’s halarious. Usually, I don’t pay any attention to it. I’ve even forgotten they have them in hotel rooms, even though I’ve stayed in them before and recently too. I really don’t seem to notice them anymore. It just sits there- unmoved, untouched, and unnoticed which could be very insulting if they really expected you to read it. However, I don’t really treat it any differently in my own life. I’ve been given many a Bible, have about 6 different versions collecting dust basically on the bookcase. The Humanist Manifesto gets far more attention. Humm… Ya think I should leave a copy of the Humanist Manifesto next time I stay at a motel? Paul Kurtz might love such an idea. lol
If I’m not working I might read it. I actually enjoy ancient history and literature and have wasted many college hours and personal time learning and reading useless dead languages just to get a taste of the originals.
Several times I have seen the Gideons Bibles accompanied by works from other faiths including the Koran, collections of Buddhist teachings, the Bhagvad Ghita (sp?), and a guide to the use of adult toys which I’m betting the hotel didn’t know about. I ended up reading selections from each of them. Yeah, that one, too.
Marriot hotels always have a copy of the Book of Mormon with the Gideon because the founder was a Mormon.
I don’t think it’s right to throw them out. I’d also lean against defacement. Inserting a page pointing out inconsistencies, etc., is fair game, if probably a fruitless endeavor.
I’ve never actually done anything with it, but the next time I go to a hotel I think I will write a “This book is a work of fiction” disclaimer on the inside cover.
Either that, or I will buy an extra copy of The God Delusion beforehand and put it in the drawer along with the Bible.
Or both. Or maybe I’ll just leave some printouts from an atheist website, since that’s cheaper.
My solution in all my more recent hotel stays has been to write URL’s of various skeptical sites like the Internet Infidels and the Skeptics’ Annotated Bible; I think I also once commented about how the story of Lot and his daughters is great family reading.
Don’t forget the Gideon Exposed! stickers. Gideon, the biblical figure that the society is named after, killed, tortured, and plundered thousands of people.
I recall some talk of a Bible recycling program. Bryan Flemming, maybe?
I’m not sure throwing them out would help, there seems to be an endless supply. Stealing them is OK, as is “defacing” them with intelligent or humorous remarks.
I am always insulted that people would think that I would want to read it, and either take it to read (quite useful, whenever I want to research something from it I have various copies with different themes highlights, or a new one to start in) or, if I feel particularly insulted, highlight parts such as the nonsense in Leviticus and leave the corners folded and sticking out to attract attention.
My Blog: In Defence of Reason
Stealing it, trashing it, defacing it, highlighting dumb parts of it, putting stickers on it or contradictory literature next to it, feeling insulted by its presence…
These all sound like you guys are giving it power over you that it doesn’t deserve. Why not ignore it? Why let it take up any space in your mind at all? It’s paper. I suspect that most of these ideas are just people kidding around but if you’re really free of its spell, be oblivious to it.
A bible in the bottom drawer of your hotel room nightstand is not a threat worth your attention. Get a good night’s sleep and work hard the next day to protect separation of church and state, religious interference with science and education, and of course bigotry against non-believers.
Please address all angry responses to Hemant. He started it, it’s all his fault.
Dammit, that of course should have read “fight religious interference… etc.”
Richard,
The bible does have power over us because most people in our society think it is the word of god. Many people (poloticians, teachers, etc.) use this book as a guide to how they live, this makes the bible “real” to me even if I don’t think it is divine. If putting a sticker on a bible makes one person question the bible or even helps them realize not everyone believes in the bible it is worth the time, IMO.
That’s kind of the impression I got too. Kind of makes me wonder whether the next step is book burning.
Why do people in our society (from whatever perspective) have such a hard time letting differing ideas simply coexist? Why are tolerance and pluralism so anathema to both liberals and conservatives, Christians and non-religious? Why do we feel so threatened by mere words on a page?
And again, I wonder, would you want Christians to treat your books this way? If there was a story about Christians publicly defacing and mocking atheist literature, would you all just be okay with that? Or would you be railing against those ignorant and intolerant fundamentalists?
Do you really think that anyone seeking out the Bible in their hotel room is going to be swayed toward your point of view by your sticker? Anybody whose faith doesn’t stick as well as a sticker on the Bible isn’t going to be looking for it in the first place. Remember, Christians have been taught that the more abuse they encounter the more right they must be. So the ones on the fence will just as likely become galvanized into increasing their faith.
The only effect you will have on the stronger believer is to produce more hate for you. When I find somebody has put religious literature under my car’s windshield wiper, I’m annoyed. If they were to actually stick it on my car with glue I’d be seriously pissed, and I’d look around the parking lot for him so I could “stick” it to him.
In these ways such futile, childish acts of vandalism have a net loss effect on others, but they can also have a negative effect on you. They can become a cheap substitute for real, effective action. Working to promote critical thinking and remove superstition in government, education and society takes time, money and courage. It could be tempting to think that being a sticker commando is enough, that you’ve done your part for the cause. Don’t kid yourself.
Richard,
Let me start by saying that I have never done anything with the bible placed in a hotel room.
I didn’t say a sticker would sway somebody to my point of view, I said it might make them question bible or think about why other don’t believe in it. If anyone is convinced by a simple sticker then they are a goober of epic proportions and I don’t care if they agree with me or not. Why do you think the sticker on the bible would only be aimed at christians staying in that room?
You analogy to your personal car is flawed, because the bible in the hotel room is not personal property. If I’d talked about breaking into their chruch or house and put the sticker on their bible that would be different.
What is this “cause” you speak of? Why assume the “sticker commandos” aren’t doing more for your cause? Methinks you take the a simple action of self expression to personally.
Sadly that is very true. I don’t think we need to be giving the fundamentalists any more fodder for their persecution complex.
The best suggestion I’ve heard so far is to leave atheist literature alongside the Bibles - whether a Dawkins book or just a pamphlet. Rather than disrespecting the views of others, why not just place yours out there too and let people make their own choice which they prefer?
Very interesting discussion! I would love to see the look of horror on a fundy’s face who opens the drawer and finds Origin of the Species sitting there next to Gideon.
HappyNat,
And I didn’t ask you if you thought your sticker would sway somebody to your point of view, but if it would sway somebody toward your point if view. Causing someone to question the Bible and to consider why others don’t believe it seems like swaying them toward your/our point of view. If there’s a fine distinction I’m missing here, please help me see it.
And hey, I’m all for causing people to question the Bible. I just think stickers are inffective and possibly counter-productive.
So…. it’s also aimed at forlorn atheists who think they’re all alone in their disbelief, and this will encourage them? Am I overlooking any other possible targets?
I assumed someone would argue that. Think about it from the point of view of the believer picking up the hotel Bible, and from the point of view of the person who put it there. The Gideon Bible is placed in the room as a gift intended for anyone who wants it. It is theirs to use and even to keep as their personal property. To put it back into the drawer is to relinquish that personal property to the next possible user, who then can accept that gift or not. To put it back with a sticker or other defacement is to vandalize the personal property of the person who might want it next.
I think it is extremely important for atheists to follow a very conscientious code of ethical behavior. We’re always being characterized as having no ethics or morals by people who think those can only come from God. We have to be alert to the finer ethical points of our actions when we choose to alter an object that was intended as a gift for someone else. The fact that we may not agree with the content of the object is beside the point. We don’t have an ethical right to deface it.
The “cause” I was referring to you described quite well in your previous post:
Resisting that kind of influence and all the negative ramifications is what I meant by “the cause.” I don’t assume that all sticker commandos do nothing else. I said it’s tempting to be satisfied with empty, anonymous gestures of defiance instead of really putting oneself out there to fight oppressive social attitudes and governmental policies that are based on religion.
You haven’t argued against any of the things I have said about the effect that stickers, etc. might have on less committed believers (to push them into believing more) and more committed believers (to foment more bigotry against non-believers.) That was really the only important point of my post.
Richard said:
So…. it’s also aimed at forlorn atheists who think they’re all alone in their disbelief, and this will encourage them? Am I overlooking any other possible targets?
Actually I think it is part of the reason the book is there. Of course aside from the obvious…for christians that do not have theirs with them.
I do agree that defacing it would be self defeating. Would there be any objections to a short note or letter to be inserted inside it? That note or letter can be easily discarded.
Just Me,
Yes, leaving literature of other points of view as you, Mike C and some others have suggested is a great idea. Express yourselves non-destructively. Everything from a note or flier to even a brand new copy of Dawkins’ The God Delusion. There must be many millionaire atheists who can afford that. Well a couple at least.
Its a book. So I think I’ld open it, read a couple of verses, put it back for someone else to have a look at.
Who knows, maybe I’ld stumble across the good samaritan story. I love that one.
I don’t think I’ld leave a copy of anything, Darwin or whatever, that would cost me a bit of money and I’m skint.
I don’t think that I’ld leave a note and so on either.
I pretty sure I wouldn’t deface it. Why deface a book?
I like Mike C’s approach right at the top.
Taking the bibles is stealing.
… but there are so many other things you can do …
http://www.removethatbible.com
Thanos
despite a seemingly endless supply, each gideon bible does cost something to produce, therefore each one taken, stolen, destroyed, etc. takes money out of their pockets.
back in the days when calling an 800 number cost the owner a fairly high price, i used to call the 700 club about 20x a day. they’d answer, i’d string them along with nonsense for a minute or two and hang up. ching! another charge to pat’s account.
if we all did that sort of thing, we might make a little pinch in their pocket.
gothgate,
The next time someone steals something from you, tell yourself they’re just using a legitimate way of resisting something that you stand for. Will that soothe your anger and loss?
I think we should leave copies of the Kama Sutra or something similar.
If enough organizations start leaving their literature in hotels, maybe hotels will ban the practice altogether.
I have created a petition (UK only) on the Prime Minister’s petition site to ban the placing these Bibles. I urge you to gin it if you are eligible.
My Blog: In Defence of Reason
Why worry so much about, or argue against something that you say doesn’t exist. By saying and doing all you mention in your blog, you are admitting and exposing the doubt and emptiness in your own life.
Stan,
You might want to step back and try to make some sense rather than hurling insults and making accusations about matters in which you are grossly ignorant.
You say:
Quit projecting, Stan. Just because your own life is empty and full of doubt, doesn’t mean anyone else’s is. It certainly doesn’t apply to a single atheist I have known.
When religionists stop trying to ram their beliefs down the throats of everyone who disagrees with them, then most interest in their delusional mind-scapes will likely go by the wayside.
And yes, I do mean “ramming down” our throats, as in: undermining both education and the US constitution by promoting creationism in all its guises as a fit topic for science classes in public schools, by blocking stem-cell research, by murdering doctors who work in family planning clinics, by flying airplanes into buildings.
Maybe you don’t think that the people who promote murder and ignorance are worth your time and consideration. I happen to consider their criminal and ignorant behavior to be a great social ill that must be understood before it can be properly treated.
Nah… I’m pretty sure Christians exist. It’s them I worry about and/or argue against.
But believe it or not, I’m mostly here to make friends and understand people better. Tell us about yourself, friend!
What are you all so afarid of…that you will read the Bible and believe it? Is that a powerful book or what?
I have read it. Several different times in fact. Maybe you should try reading it with an open mind. What are you afraid of, maybe disbelieving it? It is a powerful book of fiction.
Sandy, if I don’t even notice that it is there or not, this would imply I’m not afraid of it at all. It may exsist there, but I never see it and if one doesn’t see it, then where is the fear? This is like saying one has a fear of the unseen spider because they don’t see it and have no reaction to it. No reaction means there is no emotion to even the possible existance of it even if you do not see it.
I live in the Ozarks and well aware a spider could be anywhere. I could put my hand in a cupboard, not see the spider, and get bit, but I don’t live my life in fear of it because I don’t see it. It’s just a part of life and I don’t give it a second thought, just like I did not give the Bible in a hotel room a second thought. I never even noticed if it was there or not. So, this implies no fear of the book.
Now, if you are talking about the people and what they do with the book, that does scare me. I will give that a second thought, but the Bible can sit in a room and I don’t even take notice of it, like I do the people who use it to hit me over the head with it.
GOD DOESN’T BELIEVE IN ATHEISTS!
So God is an ahumanist? He doesn’t believe we exist? Well then we don’t have to worry about him smiting us. Larry, there are Christians who do the drive-by witnessing too, but they tell us that God loves us. So you and they are diametrically opposed on this issue. Maybe you and they should step outside and settle your differences like men. Then the winner can come back here so we can taunt them some more.
Shalom Richard, Thanks for your thoughts. God knows it is impossible to truely be an atheist. He has made himself known to all mankind. He has set eternity in every mans heart. We are all without excuse for denying Him. What can be known of God is evident in all He has created. He won’t force anyone to beleive in, rely and trust in Him. It’s up to each individual.
The Truth is available to all who sincerely want it. Why not ask Him personally to make Himself real to you.
God Bless you in your search for the truth.
Larry
I was looking for something else and came upon this site. Am I correct in understanding that an atheist does not believe that God exists? If that is so then you guys must know eveything there is to know about everything in the universe. Do you claim to have universal knowledge? To be honest and realistic about this discussion, there are somethings that I know and there are some things that you know. Some of the things I know you may also know, but there are somethings I know that you don’t know, or haven’t discovered yet. When I was a teenager I discovered that God was real by asking Jesus into my life. Just because you haven’t discovered that yet doesn’t make it any less real. Some of you people should take a reality check. The Gideons place bibles in rooms because they believe they have discovered something of immense value. If we were lost in a desert and I found water it would be immoral of me not to share it with you. These people just want to share something they believe can save your lives!
“… an atheist does not believe that God exists. If that is so then you guys must know everything there is to know about everything in the universe.”
Well, not only that has absolutely no logical coherence, i.e. you have a huge leap in your deduction there, but you imply that if you do believe in god, then you do know everything there is to know about the universe.
God is a rather poor explanation of the universe, as it just introduces a level of indirection, that does not answer the original question. It just defers it to “Who/what created God?”.
Thanos
Oh good grief! *rolling eyes* Is this suddenly the attack of the Evangelical-Fundamentalists? It seems to me, that I made a simple statement that one can not be afraid of something if they don’t notice it and suddenly we get attacked? What did that have to do with any of this?
BTW, I restate my question to all Christians, do you know that Muslims believe that all Christains and other non-Muslims are going to hell? If they are right and IF there is a hell, we’ll all be seeing each other in hell. Think about it.
(@ Thanos) No, my friend, I did not say that. What I said was that nobody can know everything there is to know…BUT there are some things I know that you don’t know because you haven’t discovered them yet, and there are some things you know that I haven’t discovered yet. To make a claim that something does not and/or cannot exist implies universal knowledge. Nobody can make that claim.
(@ Mriana) I don’t see any attack in what I said. Does a counter-argument pose such a threat to you? Yes, I know what many Muslims believe about non-Muslims, but I don’t understand what you’re getting at in bringing that up (unless it’s in response to an earlier post that I haven’t bothered looking back at.)
It wasn’t your post I was referring to, Peter. Sorry, I should have copied and used blockquotes for Larry’s posts. That would have made it clearer to others.
Interesting to note how much atheists are interested in the Bible and less of other religions? Why is that? It’s almost as though one wishes to prove it wrong, why? Just say that you don’t beleive in anything, no God, no after life. That’s cool and o.k.!
If atheists believe in nothing, it’s a belief onto its own, just like Christianity is a beleif onto its own. I see a lot on Darwin and evolution here. That still remains a theory too; therefore a belief system - and faith that this happened and is true. Otherwise - prove it. And then that would be agnostic, one doesn’t beleive because it cannot be proven. Hmmmm, interesting.
If we came from monkey’s, why do we still have monkeys?
Jesus is love and even if you do choose to beleive in nothing, that is your own personal choice. You believe in what you ever you wish to believe in. No one should ever force or coherce you. One thing is for sure, we must all die and if there’s a God, what then? Continue to seek the truth in your own way to discover why you are here and what happens when your time is up - and it will come. Death and taxes are inevitable.. God Bless you all. - Axel.
For the same reason as this:
My family came from Scotland. If I came from Scots, why do we still have Scots?
Axel, please tell us about yourself. This is usually a place for listening and sharing. I think you have come here to prove something or bait someone into a debate.
This site has been inundated with new posters recently who are contributing to a more rancorous tone. I hope that you will join us in attempting to make this place a place where listening is more important than proving something.
We’ve heard all your preaching before. Many of us here are ex-belivers, ex-evangelicals… many of us perhaps weren’t all that different than you are know, and probably said the exact same things to other people not too long ago. You ask why so many of us are interested in the Bible, it could be because a lot of us are ex-Christians. Some people I know were Christians until they read the whole bible, and that made them become atheists. I know many atheists who could beat most Christians at a Bible quiz.
Myself, I don’t know much about the bible, and my wife knows even less. But she was raised as an atheist and I was raised with some Christian upbringing.
Please, share something about yourself, something unique, so that we might get to know you and understand you. How old are you? Do you have a family? What are they like? What do you do outside of your time evangelizing? What is your impression of atheists? Do you have any atheist friends? Would you like to?
I hope that this place soon returns to how it was when people came to listen and share and not to convert and condemn. I hope you’ll stick around past when this current influx moves on, and you can be a part of this wonderful discussion between christians and atheists. There’s really nothing else like it I’ve found anywhere on the Internet.
It’s kind of being mucked up right now by people unfamiliar with the usual culture of listening and sharing. Please stay around and help make this place a place for positive interaction and not “I preach, you listen!”
Hi Axel, and welcome.
I’ll be happy to respond to your questions and statements and I’ll assume that you are here to better understand others and to be better understood by others. I won’t be arguing with you or your beliefs, nor will I be insulting or condescending. I will expect the same respect and openhandedness from you. I’m not interested in “converting” you to my way of seeing things, nor am I interested in you doing that to me. That’s not what this place is for.
Please read Siamang’s response to you with an open mind and open heart. Don’t worry about being open; those beliefs that are important to you will not be in jeopardy. The only thing that might change is your attitude toward people who are different from you. Since the airing of the “debate” between Cameron/Carson and Sapient/Kelly this site has been visited by many people who seem to be spoiling for a fight, looking for a victory, hoping to score a conversion, or other kinds of motives that I consider aggression. Siamang has been making a heroic effort to respond to many, many of these often very negative commentors by offering positive and intelligent dialogue in return. A few of the new visitors are responding in kind, and many are not. What Siamang is doing is out of his loving and sincere heart. But I think he’s getting exhausted, so talk to me too. I’ll speak only for myself, but I do share many views with several others who frequent this excellent site.
In order to have better understanding the first thing to do is to stop making statements about people who are different from you, and start asking questions instead. If you want to make statements, make them about yourself, and we’ll ask questions of you to understand you better.
You made a few statements about atheists that show some common misconceptions, and if you were to frame them in the form of a question (I sound like Alec on Jeopardy) then I and others here will be happy to give you respectful and honest answers to clear up those misconceptions. Although your comment above is brief it’s packed with questions and information. Several things you say indicate you have a strong live-and-let-live attitude. I share that trait and I thank you for that. Rather than me addressing some of the things you brought up, perhaps you could take just one at a time to ask us about. I would very much like to learn together.
Larry, you said this:
I find it interesting that you Christians claim to be the people of God and say you want to do his will, but you don’t follow his example.
Not only does God not “force anyone to believe in . . . Him,” he does not preach at people; he does not badger people on blogs; he does not ridicule people for not believing in him; he doesn’t try to convert them; he doesn’t try to undermine the teaching of evolution in our schools; he doesn’t try to pack our Supreme Court so as to repeal Roe V. Wade; he’s not railing against stem-cell researchers; he appears not to give a damn about what gay people do in their bedrooms; and he has expressed no opinions on a host of issues from authoritarianism and militarism among conservative Christians to Britney Spears exposing her pathetic paw paw in public! Why don’t you be a real follower of Jesus and follow his example?!
Axel, is that what you thing? Check out: the current issue of Free Inquiry You cna read a few articles there and granted most are about Christianity, but CSER (pronounced Ceasar and stands for Committee for the Scientific Examination of Religion.
If you have time, take a look around CFI, AHA, and Council for Secular Humanism. You’ll find a lot on religion, including Islam and alike.
So take a walk on the wild side and break a stereotype.
Having been brought up as an (Irish) Catholic I was never encouraged (by the Church, school or parents etc.) to read the Bible for myself and form my own opinions for reasons that are obvious to me now. For that reason I like to familiarise myself with the content from time to time and hotel Bibles come in handy for that. It’s funny (albeit a bit pathetic) to find that as an atheist I often know more about it and Christian/Catholic theology than people who claim to have faith in this stuff. However the funniest incident was in a hotel adjacent to Schipol (Amsterdam) Airport when I opened the room Bible to have a bit of a read only to have it fall open on a page containing a small slab of hash/marijuana! Praise the Lord!
Since that stuff isn’t really my thing I passed it on to somebody who would appreciate it.
LOL! Well, they say the Lord will provide … I guess he did!
I expect this will note will not see the light of day, but have decided to respond. I am a Gideon, The purpose of this ministry is to spread the Word of God to all, we pray that thru his Word, people will find it in their heart to acccept Jesus. As a realist I know that not all who have read the Word will come to Christ, but we pray daily that it will effect just one. Since the1890’s, this ministry has produced bibles in over 80 languages and have provided copies in 182 countries. We distribute a million copies every 5 days. Yes, you and you friends can destroy, throw away or deface Gods Holy Word, but that will not stop us, It only drives us harder to reach to people such as yourself. I sincerly hope that someday, you will find it in your heart to open you heart to the Bible, I will be praying for you.
Be open minded… Read the bible! (Try the gospel of John, for example).
If you don’t want to read it - then don’t. Leave it alone for someone else to read instead. Many people have benefitted from reading it in the past. For example, some people have decided not to commit suicide because they found comfort in the bible. (Would you take a life-jacket away from a drowning man?) Don’t be petty.
The central theme of the bible is that God loves you and wants you to have a special relationship with Him. After all, that’s why He created you.
But there’s a problem… Humanity is essentially flawed. (Surely that’s apparent to everyone who reads the news?). This flaw is our fault - as a result of a spiritual “Fall”. In essence, God gave humanity free will - and sometimes humanity chooses to do evil over good.
The bible shows the flawed aspect of humanity - and its cure. (See John 3:16 - especially if you don’t already know the most often quoted verse in the bible).
Again I encourage you to keep an open mind. I have read The God Delusion and other atheistic literature. Can you say the same of The Bible?
Andy
(Science teacher)
The Bibles should stay. I mean they paid to have them there. If you want your propaganda in there you can pay to have it there too! God loves you.
in response to axel’s statement, “If we came from monkeys, why do we still have monkeys?”
i will come right out and say it; i am a christian. i love god. And, i am happy and welcome that we as adults can have a dialogue like this, but please, if you want to make counterpoints, make them educated. uneducated remarks by anyone in any religion or non-belief system give that group a bad reputation.
and to clarify what evolution is…
evolution does not say we came from monkeys, it says we come from the same distant ancestors. it makes complete sense that they are still around. our line split with monkeys & apes sometime between 6 to 8 million years ago.
take your third or fourth cousins, they aren’t really related to you any longer, but they still come from some where in your family and still happen to exist.
the chain from australopithecus (our earliest human ancestors) to modern day homo sapiens can be quite interesting. you should pick up a book on anthropology or even archeology. you may like it. you never know.
it is ok to believe in god and believe in evolution at the same time. that doesnt make me a hypocrite either. and, it is ok to have different beliefs. we dont have to beat eachother up for being different. we should all be more respectfull of eachothers thoughts, which can only result in less personal angst, if nothing else. and a lot less useless wars… think of all the people getting slaughtered right now, today, who get killed because they believe something different.
jill,
It is always a pleasure to meet a rational and well-informed Christian. Please stick around. Your voice may be better able to reach the less educated of your faith than we atheists can. We can’t have too many appeals for respect and patience with each other, both on this website and in the world at large.
Why do you think it is said, “God does not believe in Atheists?”
Then I would like someone to review this;
Consider Law of Math, does it change? or not change? is it material or nonmaterial? does it have matter or is it abstract, show me number 2 or 45,000; does 1+ 1 always =2? Can you prove people wrong with math? Say you gave a teller a $100 bill and she gave you 2 $5.00 bills back, can you prove her wrong with Math?
Consider Law of Science, does it change? or not change? is it material or nonmaterial? does it have matter or is it abstract? can gravity be proven?
Einstein’s E = Mc 2(square). Repeated observations and expressed in math equations, can support theories, formulated hypothesis, proven over and over. Let me see it physically.
Consider Law of Logic, does it exist or not exist? does it change? or not change? is it material or nonmaterial? does it have matter? How do you make decisions everyday? How do you know which side of the road to driveon? How do you know that you can drink water from a bottle marked water, and it not be poison?
Consider Law of Absolute Morality, does it exist or not exist? does it change? or not change? is it material or nonmaterial? When it is broken what happens? What if we all decided that anything goes, not far from wrong, Rape of children is acceptable, is it wrong? If a man takes your wife beats her and rapes, leaves her for dead, it is wrong? How do you know? Is it ok to lie, deceive, why be mad or upset at someone who lies if it is ok? What is your belief? Let me see it physically. How do you know what is the correct behavior you follow, and it doesn’t have to be opionion, but what you will not accept, why won’t you accept it? What if your neighbor thinks comes over and kills your family, he thinks it is ok, why don’t you? Show me physicall ly your morals.
Rationality is the key isn’t it? Universal huh? If not, then your argument is futile, inconsistent with the Laws that govern humanity. If you think otherwise you must be a psychopath and need a psychiatrist, because otherwise is irrational thought.
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God had made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Romans 1:18-21.
Also Circular Reasoning. Person basing fact from the Bible. Example; How do you find the President of the United States, can you reasonable say you can find him in the white house? Is this proof? Let’s look in the white house…
You can contact me with replies because I really do want them to me: qbee_75@hotmail.com
I heard a story when I was in college from my roommate who was a missionary’s kid. She said that a man in their church was saved by a page from a Bible that was used to wrap his fish in he had bought at the market. Now, I know that people often get offended by the presence of a Bible, a Christian, even a cross worn by a fellow co- worker. I don’t think that those folks who feel they should take the Bible or throw the Bible away are in any way frustrating God’s plan to get His Word out. Scriptural history is full of stories where God uses all kinds of people to move His Word from one boundry to another. (Maybe the trashman , a homeless person, a prostiture, or a hungry child stumbles upon that trash can where that disgarded Book lies.) God’s far more creative than a trash can and a dusty old bookshelf. What would make me nervous about taking a book that is historically reverened by mankind in general is the fact that those who have this Book in their possession will have no reason to ever argue they are innocent the knowledge of the Law written in it…. Just because you speed down a street, get caught and argue you never saw a sign does not mean you won’t get a ticket.. final judgement is the same way. You’re not hiding anything, you’re just placing yourself in greater jepordy because you have the Book in your possession. This is a Life argument… leave Religion out of it.
Hmmm….
To the atheist, you are simply denying the truth. The truth surrounds us everyday and we choose to believe it or not. Example, I can’t look at the human eye and all its wonders and deny a Creator anymore than I can deny that this chair that I am sitting on was designed and built by someone. Design points to a designer, everybody knows that. No matter what we think of the truth, it’s still the truth. God has written His law in your heart and you would be foolish to turn away from His truth. You (like me) need forgiveness and to be filled. Because I felt empty so long ago. So empty. There was a hole there that I tried to fill with everything you can think of including but not limited to homosexuality, alcohol, and being a good kid. But, God tore my heart with His Word and I can’t deny His truth. I need Him!
Wow, that got far away from where I wanted to go.
N-e-ways, it all boils down to faith. We each have faith in what we believe in. But the question is, what about truth? Is my faith in the truth? Or is my faith in a lie? One of us is denying the truth. I just made a t-shirt for me and my roommate today (iron-on letters). This is what it says, “I’m forgiven…that’s all I know.” And when it comes down to it, all I know is that I’m forgiven. I am no longer under the penalty of God’s law. I am free and I feel free. I try to prove something in this life, and find that I can’t prove anything in this life except that I am forgiven.
Chady : )
To Forgiven/Chady,
You seem to be a very introspective person. You have examined your own thoughts and feelings, and have made important changes in your life. I’m glad that you have gained freedom and fulfillment. Since you have worked so hard on yourself it’s probably accurate to say that no human being knows you better than you do. So if I came to you and claimed to know what your private thoughts, feelings and motives are without having even met you, you would be well justified in objecting to my arrogant attempt to portray you the way I think you are.
You shouldn’t do that to others. (Golden Rule, remember?) From what you have shared about yourself so far you seem to be a decent person, so I expect that you would not wish to be rude or unkind. Telling someone unsolicited what you think they’re all about is rude and unkind. The only atheist you can say anything intimate about is the atheist that you have gotten to know very intimately over a long time. I suspect that you don’t know any even casually, because you sound like you’re parroting things that you heard some preacher say about atheists, something that he interpreted from an old book. We have heard it all many times before and it’s just not correct. We know ourselves and you don’t know us at all. Please don’t pretend to.
You speak a lot about truth. Set that aside and concentrate on honesty. You have been honest and frank about yourself. Now continue to be honest and acknowledge that you don’t know us. That is the first step toward respectful understanding.
If you actually want to get to know a person you have to ask them about themselves, rather than repeat stuff you heard elsewhere that simply does not apply. Try getting to know real people rather than tossing at arms-length religious clichés toward a stereotype “atheist” who doesn’t actually exist. Around here we call that “drive-by preaching.”
There are several real, live atheists who read and comment on this blog who are complex, thoughtful and likeable individuals. If you ask them about themselves they will probably be happy to tell you. If you tell them about themselves they will, as anyone would, ignore you or ask you to shut up.
I recently discovered I have a Gideon Bible at my own house. The Bible is supposedly from Canada and I am from the Philippines. I don’t know how it ended here. I never paid much attention to the other older Bibles lying around during my teen years while I was schooled in a Catholic school. I never had the gusto to read the Bible, frankly because I was actually so sick of the doctrines being 12 years in a Catholic school.
Sometime around college, I recently had the urge to read this Gideon Bible I found. I regularly read a few chapters everyday or night, and I have to admit, I think its a wonderful book. Yeah there is bloodshed in it, tons and tons of battles, but I think every story has that. To think that the Bible isn’t just a manual - as I thought it would be (at first) because school never gave us the ’stimulae’ to read it - Well its a story, quite practical and spiritual at the same time. I admit I have never had a clue there was so much love in it too. Thinking that most people I know link more violence and fear to it than love. When its definitely not the case. Overall, I think people should give it a chance. I dunno, I did, I feel better. I think its an impression that religion might have made more damage than good? But I can honestly say, I really didn’t find it in this book. I think its people who use the notion of God we should definitely watch out for and not the other way around. Later…
God either exists or he does not and we all better make sure we check it out and read the book (bible) or we face the consequences thereof…ignorance never excuses our own responsibilities!
What goes around comes around and I believe that there has to be a God to keep all things in order, it makes more logical sense to believe in the “bible” because this is the studying of the “facts” and according to Acom’s razor: The simplest solution tends to be the correct one, so when in doubt check it out or do without!
I was doing a Google search on the Gideons and found this link. I’ve taken time to read every post and have been intrigued by some of the comments made.
I empathize with those here who feel misunderstood about who they are and what they believe. I have felt frustrated more times that I can count with people who say that they are Christians and then open their mouths and give those who are really trying to be “Christ-like” a bad name. They come across in a very condemning tone (if that’s you, please read John 3:17 again). That’s not what Christianity is about, condemning others.
Richard Wade said “… If you want to make statements, make them about yourself, and we’ll ask questions of you to understand you better.”
My name is Teresa, and I am a Christian– and when I say that, I mean that I try to live my life like Christ did. His message was simple— love God and love your neighbor as yourself. If we do that we’ll treat everyone with honor and respect.
I believe that God exists and that he loves all humanity; I also believe that God hates sin (evil—murder, hate, rape, lying, stealing, adultery, etc.) because of the horrendous affects it has on the lives of those who are exposed to it. So do I.
Siamang said, “We’ve heard all your preaching before. Many of us here are ex-believers, ex-evangelicals… many of us perhaps weren’t all that different than you are know, and probably said the exact same things to other people not too long ago. You ask why so many of us are interested in the Bible, it could be because a lot of us are ex-Christians. Some people I know were Christians until they read the whole bible, and that made them become atheists.”
I don’t understand this statement. Would you elaborate on why reading the whole Bible made you become atheist? And, when someone says “I’m an atheist,” what are they saying? What do atheist’ believe?
Mriana said, I restate my question to all Christians; do you know that Muslims believe that all Christians and other non-Muslims are going to hell? If they are right and IF there is a hell, we’ll all be seeing each other in hell. Think about it.
Yes, that’s part of their belief system, the Muslims believe that anyone who doesn’t follow their religion will go to hell. I personally believe that there is a hell, and that it was created for the devil (the source of all evil) and the angelic beings who chose to follow him—not for people. But, there are people who choose to be evil too; and those are the ones I believe will go to hell. (Evil: that which causes harm, ruin, injury, pain, misfortune, or destruction; morally bad.)
Interesting to note, the Bible describes hell as a ‘lake of fire.’ I believe it to be in existence already and that we see it overflowing at times… Have you ever seen lava that spews from an erupting volcano. It is extremely hot, reaching temperatures as high as 1,300 to 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit. The Crater of Volcano Kilauea in the Hawaiian Islands is literally called a ‘lake of fire.’ The Bancroft Library at the University of California in Berkeley has a picture of it available. Glimpses of Our National Parks Website says of the Hawaiian islands, “they possess the fourth largest volcanic crater in the world, the largest active volcano, and a lake of turbulent sulphurous fire…” In 1989 geologists from the Open University in Milton Keynes, UK, reported the sighting of entire lakes of liquid sulphur around a volcano in Costa Rica.
Question to think about. Would God (if you believe that He exists) be unkind and unloving if He punished people for being evil? We know they exist. Our world is full of lawless people, people who are immoral, who impose themselves on society. If He did have a place where these would ultimately be punished for the way they lived—does that make Him unkind or uncaring? Or would it make Him just the opposite.. one who really cares how others are treated?
Teresa, you’re very patient to have read all 62 of those posts before yours. They span over five months and a few of them border on the bizarre. You have asked several interesting questions, and I cannot answer for other people or answer several of them in an informed way. I will try to answer one of your questions from my own viewpoint as well as from my experience with other people:
Firstly, it’s difficult to typify atheists because they are a very heterogeneous category. They tend to be very independent and often avoid affiliations with groups. Their opinions can be very disparate. A favorite joke around here is that getting atheists to agree on something is like trying to herd cats. So when I describe some of their characteristics, keep in mind that I’m being very general and there are many exceptions.
In general, when a person says they’re an atheist, they’re simply saying that they do not believe in a god or gods. That is all they are saying and the many extra conclusions that people jump to are where so much misunderstanding and difficulty arise. Some of the things that non-atheists assume about atheists are far more peculiar than their own religious beliefs.
One of the hardest distinctions for a believing person to understand is that there is an enormous difference between the statement, “I do not believe in god,” and the statement, “I believe there is no god.” To many believers who are unfamiliar with atheism these sound basically the same. That is because they assume that everyone has to believe in something. That is not correct. It is quite possible for a person to not believe in something without having a counter-belief in its place. Believing is a specific mental activity that some people just don’t do very much of, or none at all. The word “belief” has many nuances and connotations, so for clarity I’m using this definition: “a persistent assumption of the truth of something in the absence of acceptable evidence.” So if there is no acceptable evidence then some people just don’t busy themselves with the mental activity called believing.
The vast majority of atheists fall into the category of “do not believe in god.” Very few go by “believe there is no god.” Most just don’t believe in things if there is no convincing evidence, and they don’t believe against things if there is no convincing evidence for that either.
Some of the discussions on this site go on and on around the question of what is “acceptable evidence.” For most atheists it has to be something more substantial and verifiable than stories written in an old book that refers only to itself for its veracity.
I think that some people respond to different senses more than others when they are learning. Some are more auditory and some are more visual. When it comes to believing, there can be a similar difference: Some people strongly respond to hearing, and will assume the truth of something simply by being told about it. Others will not respond strongly to that but will only respond to seeing. They are the ones who demand to be shown what is being described before they believe it. They are the skeptics. The word “skeptic” does not mean disbeliever. It means “to look.” By the very nature of their nervous systems they must see very convincing evidence before they can assume the truth of what they have heard. I do not imply that one group is smarter, or more mature or in any way superior. They are simply different. There have always been people who say, “please show me first.” It is not attitudinal; I think it is inborn.
The unfortunate assumptions and stereotypes that people attach to atheists can be very unfair and very destructive. It is usually from simply never having gotten to know any atheists, but sometimes it’s really vicious, bigoted stuff. These include that atheists are all: anti-religious, immoral, stupid, conceited, depressed, depraved, degenerate, criminal or evil. To be sure there are a few angry ones, a few jerks, and a couple I wish would just shut up. But most of the atheists I know are good, moral, ethical and intelligent people who value fairness, freedom, compassion and honesty. It’s the same as you said about being frustrated when someone describes themselves as a “Christian” and then proceeds to embarrass Christians everywhere. You try to live a Christ-like life. I try to live my daily life by specific ethical principles that I have adopted, and to be open-minded and tolerant of others.
This is why the thing I enjoy doing the most at this blog has nothing to do with debating religion or philosophy. I enjoy getting to know believers and dispelling the incorrect assumptions I have had about them, and helping them to do the same with non-believers. We find we have far more in common than our differences once we take the time to clear away our assumptions. We can work together for things we value in common.
Hi Teresa,
First of all, welcome! This is kind of an old thread, and so you may or may not get a lot of responses to it… but Richard alerted me to it. I’d reiterate what Richard said. I wanted to respond to a couple of questions you had…
You asked:
Well, it wasn’t me who read the entire bible, but I have heard atheists who were Christians who walked away from Christianity after reading the entire bible. Julia Sweeney is one, and she has a wonderful, witty, warm, humorous and what I would call “spiritual” one-woman show about that process called “Letting Go of God.” (Check that link for some audio clips or to buy the CD.)
If you want to know my story about how I came to believe different from how I was raised, it’s here.
When I say “I am an atheist” what I’m saying is that I think the world is best understood as a natural process, not a supernatural one. I am also saying that I don’t know if there is a god, is not a god, are gods, are not gods or none of the above/all of the above. However, I pretty strongly suspect that the religions we have on this planet at the beginning of the 21st Century are so far off of what we may find as the “root and base truth of the universe” that I’m better off honestly acknowleging my ignorance rather than naming and making rather large and frighteningly specific claims about things we puny humans know nothing about. For me, the beginning of wisdom is the phrase “I do not know” and the beginning of knowlege is “let’s test the evidence.”
But as Richard says, we’re all different. Best to ask each person individually what they believe.
Are you actually saying that volcanoes are really from Hell, and that Hell is physically in the center of the earth? And that these statistics about volcanoes are material support for the supernatural belief of a spiritual afterlife in torment?
If so, please try to see it from my point of view… It just looks to me as if the line between fantasy and reality is not very clear to you. Do you also believe that lasers are the swords of angels, and meteorites are the tears of the devil?
It just sounds like you have an overactive imagination, as do all pronouncements of an awaiting hell by believers.
I do not believe that hell exists. And descriptions of it being a literal place below the earth’s tectonic plates (I’ll admit, that’s a new one for me) make it all the less likely that I believe in it. The more and more fantastic the claims of the supernaturalists in the world, the wider the gulf between their claims and their evidence.
But I’ll continue to be a good, kind, loving and thoughtful person regardless. I do good for goodness’ sake, and leave the fears of an awaiting hell to the believers in such things.
Anyway, welcome, and I hope my blunt answer about hell hasn’t put you too far off.
Pick Richard Wade’s brain about volcanoes if you get a chance, he’s a volcano expert.
Take care, and welcome!
How can you believe in hell? Why would a good God send people to hell? In mention of hell, do you really believe that? What do you think hell is?
I gather it’s supposed to be a place of punishment that never ends.
Why in the world would you believe in that?
I believe in hell because Jesus says it exists (Matthew 5:22,29,30; 10:28; 11:23; 16:18; 18:9; 23:15,33; Luke 10:15; 12:5; 16:23). Late in Jesus ministry He taught His disciples that there would be a day of judgment for a people, and that on that day, His followers would be granted eternal, joyous life in the presence of God, but that those who rejected Him would “go away into eternal punishment” (Matthew 25:46).
If God is good and loving, why hell?
God’s goodness cannot abide the presence of evil, so only those who have been made good by Jesus can be with Him forever. Those who refuse to accept the righteousness of Jesus on themselves have chosen to be evil forever, and so have chosen to spend eternity separated from God. It is not God’s choice that they go to hell, but their own (Your own choice, your decision, you made up your mind not to believe, but that choice doesn’t make hell go away) Hell is one consequence of moral freedom. And that separation from God will mean unimaginable suffering, since man was really designed to spend eternity with God.
But how can God permit them to make that kind of choice?
Earlier I quoted from a man named C.S. Lewis, who became a Christian after years as an atheist and then as an agnostic. Lewis, too, struggled with the idea of hell. “I would pay any price,” he wrote, “to be able to say truthfully, ‘All will be saved’.
But my reason retorts, Without their will, or with it?’ If I say, Without their will’ I at once perceive a contradiction; how can the supreme voluntary act of self-surrender be involuntary? If I say ‘With their will’, my reason replies, ‘How if they will not give in?”‘
In preservation in the freedom of man, can you write off the existence of hell? We may not like it, but if I could I would like to write off the existence of a number of things, but I can’t.
I read the whole Bible more than once. Not only was is boring, it was horrid! Then I read other mythology and saw a lot of similarities and began researching it and trying to find out why they are so similar. If Christians only knew or if those who do know would accept the facts, they might realize it’s all just a bunch of stories. Dreadful stories at that, but I won’t go into all the details because it would take several books all the size of Acharya’s or longer with many more resources than she has.
BTW, 99% of these stories I didn’t read to my sons, but my sons both read the whole Bible and thought it was horrid too. The older one calls himself a Buddhist and the younger considers himself nothing, yet I raised them in the Episcopal Church. Then of course most Episcopal Churches consider them stories too.
Heatherross, I don’t think you’re getting much interaction. Perhaps if you told us about yourself and set the preaching aside for a bit?
I come here to learn about other people and from other people. You don’t seem to be interacting with us. Are you a spambot? Will you set down your preacher’s robes and talk to us as human beings?
Heatherross, “This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:3-4). You mean that Jesus was a failure? He would have to be if all weren’t saved. Either that or Paul was wrong. Do you really want to go there?