Posted by Jesse Galef in This post is by Jesse Galef
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Yesterday, Andrew Sullivan put up a post about an extremely brutal hate-crime attack on an openly gay man. The 2-minute news report he embeds is depressing, but there was something to laugh about at the end. The studio interviewed one of the attackers’ friends, who proudly displayed this tattoo:
It’s a tattoo reading “[Thou] shall not lie with a male as one does with a woman. It is an abomination. Leviticus 18:22″. Who else sees the problem here?
Leviticus also forbids tattooing. In the very next chapter.
“Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD. Leviticus 19:28″
Ah, suddenly it all becomes clear to me! He’s not an ignorant man clumsily using the Bible to support his prejudices! It’s a brilliant meta-joke, using delightful self-reference and blinding irony. Perhaps he’s gay himself and is using the tattoos to make a sharp-witted statement about the true meaning of morality, tolerance, and religion.
… judging by his TV interview, he hides his intellect well.
On a more serious note, I can’t think of a better way to illustrate the inconsistency involved when people cherry-pick passages of scripture. What a perfect visual representation of our argument.
I want a tattoo that says:
That’s golden blasphemy right there!
@Siamang
I was about to say the same thing.
Bible fail!
I’m usually not a fan of the “tatoos are for idiots, imagine what they’ll look like when you’re old” argument.
This deserves an exception, though ! In a few decades, when gay rights have come a little further, it seems likely that, as with any civil rights movement, most of the population will then think that gay couples are perfectly normal and not letting them marry was a relic from the past. This guy will the equivalent of permanent dunce hat branding right into him
You don’t expect people to read all of the Bible, when it is so much easier to just read the parts that agree with you.
And I’m sure those who would object to the tattoo prohibition with the standard, “Well that was for then, not now” argument will have no trouble saying 18:22 is for all time.
Do you really thing his opinion will change, Bethor? I don’t. Pretty much this guy is going to stay stuck in a box his entire life. We can only hope that if he has children they don’t get sucked into the same vortex of mindless hate.
I’m not really hoping he’ll change his mind (although that would greatly add to the irony of course).
However I think it is likely that the general mood towards gay marriage will shift from something supposedly controversial to just being the natural state of things (or at least much less shocking to a lot of people).
This in turn will lead to open homophobia being a lot less socially acceptable, making this guy look like an idiot at first glance to a much larger segment of the population.
Of course, that could just be wishful thinking on my part
Or me trying to reassure myself: having watched the video in question, the irony of the situation isn’t really making up for the horror of the beating that poor guy received.
Following this kind of flawed thinking, incest and child sacrifice and rampant bestiality are now also the acts of the culturally enlightened.
I can only speak from the Jewish perspective here, but this actually makes sense.
Homosexuality falls under the Noahide laws, which (according to traditional Judaism) ALL poeple must follow. The bulk of the laws in the Torah (like the prohibition against tattoos), however, only apply to Jews.
So yes, according to Jews this guy has it exactly right — tattoos are fine (for him), but homosexuality is an abomination (punishable by death).
That video, though: shattered jaw, lacerated spleen, and lung collapse presumably from haemopneumothorax — what kind of monster does that to a man on principles alone? The hypocrisy is just the cherry on top of an utterly despicable and unacceptable behaviour. What’s worse is that even with punishment, I highly doubt he’d learn from the error in his thinking. It’s an atrocious mentality.
Utterly sickening.
People like the attacker and Tattoo Boy are dangerous. These hateful men obviously have some deep seated issues about sexuality and religion.
This guy is a dangerous idiot now, but who knows what the future holds.
As people grow up, experience life, and mature they sometimes do renounce the bigoted views they once had. The most powerful are the public unconditional renunciations.
George Wallace famously said, “I was wrong. Those days are over and they ought to be over.”
Poor guy. Imagine being attacked for something that is simply part of who you are like being left handed, blond or gay.
These tattooed idiots remind me of another band of tattooed idiots. Captain Blythe was mutinied against by his crew on the Bounty. You’ve probably seen the Mel Gibson film. What isn’t in the film is that the crew decided to get matching tattoos as a sign of solidarity on their lower backs. We call them arse antlers in England. When they were captured by the Royal Navy these tattoos were used to identify the crew and so speed their trial and executions.
I sincerely hope that the hateful tattoos of the attackers’ “friend” will also help the police to arrest and successfully prosecute the bigoted thugs who would attack an innocent man. They really are just the sort of thing that people with no imagination or empathy would do pattern their bodies with.
Even if the victim did come on to them don’t they understand that they can say “No, thanks” without resorting to violence? Society needs to be protected from people like this. Violent religious extremists.
I think the point you’re making here is a little bit of a stretch. More context needs to be surrounding this. I have many issues with the religious right and their extreme anti-human rights, but we also need to be fair when attacking them. Read this for more context of tattoos and why Leviticus forbade them. Since Leviticus is part of the OT, much of what is in there was wiped out when the Christians got Jesus (according to their belief).
http://www.religioustattoos.net/Bible_Support/index.php
But you don’t understand! It all changed with the New Testament. We’re under grace now. The one about tatooing is no longer in force. See? If you just understood Christian theology, it would all become plain.
This is awesome. Thank you for posting.
[...] and choose the parts that confirm what they already believe. Jesse Galef over at Friendly Atheist has pointed out what a beautiful example this tattoo is of cherry-picking the Bible: Leviticus also forbids [...]
Since Leviticus is part of the OT, much of what is in there was wiped out when the Christians got Jesus (according to their belief).
You’ll just have to disagree with Jesus H. Christ on that point.
Matt 5:17-18 – “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”
FYI
There is a March and Rally will be held tomorrow in College Point Queens NYC Step off at 2pm. They will be marching down College Point Boulevard from 20th Avenue until 14th Avenue and they will then hold a rally/speakout at nearby Popenhusen playground.
Hi Jesse! It’s Ames of Julia fame. And good piece. Ridiculousness.
I love it! How often do these kind of idiots make it on the news. Way too often.
That’d be a great argument, if only it weren’t for that “for the dead” clause…
abstainer, what you just did was explain / defend Biblical cherry-picking with a complicated sounding answer. It’s still cherry-picking regardless of how you try to spin it, defend it, obfuscate it, complicate it. A wrong answer and a verbose, overly complicated wrong answer are still both wrong answers anyway.
What kind of a sick fuck gets something like that tattooed on himself? That guy must have serious issues.
Oh, and Miko, the “for the dead” part was for cutting oneself. The marks on the skin part comes after.
I’d just like to point out the irony of this story being written by Andrew Sullivan — a gay Catholic, and a very public defender of religion.
The word “tittle” makes me titter!
Great post!
A couple of things: As far as I can tell, “for the dead” refers to gashing; tattoos look like they’re prohibited whether they’re for the dead or not. And, if you decide that laws in Leviticus don’t have any validity unless they’re also found somewhere else, then I don’t see the point of quoting the law in Leviticus.
I’m no expert in human physiology or gay sex, but I’m pretty sure it’s impossible to “lie with a male as one does with a woman”.
@ RedSeaRoadkill
There is the only problem i see with the Jewish religion. You rely too much on what other people have told you is right and wrong. Are you so intellectually lazy that you can’t ponder the pros and cons of certain behavior for yourself? “Oh, this book says it’s wrong so it must be wrong.” No matter where you read of these ideas you have to remember the fundamental flaw. It was written by a man or a small group of people. People are flawed in their lack of perspective. As men, we only perceive what we can sense with our sensory organs. We have just recently, the last 4,000 years, started to use our brains as a sensory organ. The Bible, The Torah, The Bhagavad Gita are all written by flawed men who believe what they write and from their perspective it all probably made sense. They had the conviction to question everything and equate right and wrongs to actions of their time. Start living your own life. Don’t follow the prophet, be the prophet.
Delicious, delicious irony. I want to laugh and cry at the same time.
Oh my… so much food for thought here. I say fine, let the guy tattoo this on his arm. I know where I stand with him! My greatest issue is that people of “faith” whatever their religion, be it Judaism or Christianity seem to believe that American Constitutional law should have some religious foundation. Freedom of and from religion are expressly stated in the First Amendment. The fact that a State or Federal law can eliminate the right of certain Church’s from legally marrying certain people seems in direct violation of that. And that is where the focus needs to shift! If people want to believe the world was created in 6 days by a man in the sky with a scepter so be it. I take comfort in the fact that my ancient cousins were ape like. I bet those apes were smarter than this neanderthal who tattooed that on his arm!
@RedSeaRoadKill – re: Noahide Laws
I’d say that is oncorrect based on my brief research. I’m not from a Jewish background though so I may be missing something. According to multiple websites I found, the law prohibiting tatooing is included in the 7 Noahide laws (actually 7 categories of law) and is a required observance for Gentiles.
Example, http://www.hasidicuniversity.org/index.php?page=hu_theocracy/mitzvah_profile.php?mitzvah=-41
[...] friend of a man arrested in a vicious attack on a gay man proudly displays his Leviticus tattoo for a news crew. Apparently the man only read far enough to find passages decrying homosexuality, [...]
Irony is best served on a plate of exclusion from reality.
I’m pleased to see that everyone agrees that homophobic bigots are cherry pickers.
I hope these guys take comfort in their beliefs when they’re being sodomized in prison.
I like that the THOU in this THOU SHALT is not supposed to lie with men. Don’t lie with men?
Assuming the tattoo and the scripture do not endorse women lying with women, then this does not compute at all. This pretty much exempts women entirely from any of those old religious rules, since they are not talking to us.
So, get tattoos, girls, Have fun, pay attention, try to be kind… and enjoy.
Look, if the Christian theocracy they long for ever happened, in addition to fighting over whose version, they’d be shocked what they’d be repressed with. Most are clueless what’s in there.
Someone needs to interview the guy again and read the passage to him, while he is displaying his arm
ugh. *shudders*
abstainer:
Completely agree. I’m an atheist and strongly disagree with religion however you make an excellent point. In order to disagree with something, one must fully understand it and in this case, see the opposing viewpoint through their eyes to pose a fair and educated argument. We mustn’t ‘cherry-pick’ passages just as they shouldn’t.
@ Paul Lundgren
Oh, I get it. This punk used to be someone’s “BITCH” while in prison!
Shouldn’t cherry picking involve carefully selecting the things that are most edible?
This isn’t a “Bible fail”, Veritas. This is a “reader fail” or, more likely, a “non-reader, one-who-hears-what-one-wants fail”.
To the point in your other post, I, too, hope that this moron’s spawn would learn to reason and not to hate as their father does. Sadly, though, I can imagine his kids having greater hate, still. I’m afraid that they will be taught to blame the law and homosexuals for the consequences of their father’s behaviour, rather than his behaviour, itself.
I find that I can’t wrap my mind around the inconsistencies here. Forget about the tattooing for a moment because it is debatable whether a gentile must follow the rules against tattooing and since I don’t think our example here is tattooing himself to fulfill some obligation to a pagan god. Let’s give the assailant the benefit of the doubt and say–for argument’s sake–that he IS following Noahmide law (the 7 laws passed to all men through Noah, the father of the one group that survived God’s flood). If that is the case then he has incurred the same sorts of penalties for himself. Not only did he take the punishment of this man into his own hands, thereby disregarding God’s law about having a justice system with judges who mete out punishments before they’re imposed, but he flagrantly ignored the commandment and prohibition against theft when he stole this man’s property. “Thou shalt not steal,” is not only Noahmide law, but it is one of the New Testament’s Ten Commandments. If the victim here was being punished for his crime against God, then I can only hope that his assailant and his friends will be held to those same standards.
Paul Lundgren wrote
This was my initial thought but then the sensible part of my mind pointed out that rape and homosexuality are not in any way the same thing. It is wrong to equate them even in outrage. There will be some who are unable to discern the difference between a normal loving relationship between member of the same sex and a violent man in prison forcing himself on another. We shouldn’t be encouraging such a connection even if we want to punish the bigots who commit such crimes.
An old friend of mine posted this article link on FB and obviously I followed it. I am not an atheist I am Jewish, and I love the commentary. No one here is an idiot. No one is disrespectful to one another. I have very little time to spend enjoying an activity not related to work. Reading your views was enjoyable and time well spent. I didn’t manage to read everything but I will come back later. Off to work. Thanks.
[...] catch from the Friendly Atheist, from whom I also snagged the [...]
[...] on J-Walk, via FriendlyAtheist, via [...]
[...] a little story, picked up by the Friendly Atheist, that highlights why getting people who think they’re Christians to rightly understand how [...]
another one they forgot.
Deuteronomy 22
22:20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
22:21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father’s house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
if you found out your wife wasn’t a virgin, put her to death
I am afraid the Bible haters will not be immune to the Muslim attacks when they forcibly set things according to their order. It seems you are attacking anything that does not allow you to do whatever you want to do. It is not very different from what mr tatoo has done above… just attacking another group. Words have little effect when the opposition has force, and all freedoms are granted because someone used force to gain them. Thank a vet, be kind to others, and be prepared to defend yourself and your freedoms… they are NOT free.
[...] The Friendly Atheist: Why is this anti-gay Leviticus tattoo extra absurd? [...]
[...] lie with a male as one does with a woman. It is an abomination. Leviticus 18:22?. Of course, as Jesse Galef points out: Leviticus also forbids tattooing. In the very next chapter. “Ye shall not make any cuttings in [...]
It hasn’t been that long ago that tattoos were taboo in most of society. Now they are common and accepted by the “younger” generation. (I am 55 and have several but don’t tell my mom!)
Someday I hope the same thing will happen with homosexuality. Does this Bible verse also apply to lesbians? My sister (who has no tats, BTW) is not an abomination!She is exactly what God made her to be. After all, He doesn’t make mistakes!
In response to the Leviticus reference – “lie with a male as one does with a woman.”
This verse has to do with the fact that women were seen as being subservient to men at the time. In relation to the historical period, it was seen as an abomination to treat another man in a subservient manner.
The lesson in Leviticus has to do with the concept that other men are equals and as such must not be subjugated. Leviticus says nothing about men having sex with other men, as long as they treat one another equally.
While we are talking bible verses, let me just rant for a moment…..
I really hate, when people think that the bible was written in english, and they pick other supposed verses from the bible that include words (like: homosexual) that weren’t even created, until the last two centuries refering to them as “the word of GOD”. It bugs me.
Furthermore, who cares what the “Bible” says anyway? It’s like waving some old Jim Jones “People’s Temple” fliers or a copy of “The Hitchhikers Guides To The Universe” around and claiming that everyone should do, what the book says, because it is the word of God. It is ridiculous! I could care less, what some archaic cults that are hell bent on overpopulating the planet, think about anything.
why do ya think they call it the holy buybull?
Though I am not Jewish, my Biblical education has included study of the OT. My understanding is that both verses are considered purity laws that ensure those serving in the temple were holy. Since women, in those times, were generally unclean, these laws did not apply to them. Of course, they couldn’t move about freely anyway, so it didn’t matter. Finally, these laws wee written at a time prior to our current understanding of homosexuality as a natural occurrence as some people develop, where they desire intimate romantic relationships with a person of the same sex. It is unnatural for a straight man to have a sexual/romantic relationship with another man; it is also unnatural for a gay man to want such a relationship with a woman (same goes for straight women and lesbians). However, when these verses were written down, this was not understood. I would like to note that most conservatives are opposed to both homosexuals and tattoos.
Like mingledorph, I am encouraged by the good nature of all posting here. I am Christian, but I believe we find truth in more than just the ‘literal’ interpretation of scripture. Like hoverFrog, I hope we are careful what we wish on these people. They are cruel idiots. However, wishing them ill (especially rape at the hands of other brutes) only reinforces their hate of homosexuals and those who support them.
Ahhh – I love Leviticus. I don’t know the bible that well, but Leviticus is a good book for pointing out the hypocrisy of the religious right wingers. Sigh. Especially the parts about adultery…
[...] the quotes they don’t like. Attacks like these include (but not limited to) shellfish, tattoos and various marriage related [...]
Look at the guy’s other tatoos, I bet the rest of his body reads like a Nazi Germany propaganda pamphlet.
Ok, it really needs to be read in context, like one person suggested. The tattooing referred to in that book was actually an occult practice. When the Jews had been brought out of Egypt, they still occasionally lapsed into the false religious teaching that they had followed for so long as slaves. Also, when Jesus returned, He came to fulfill the law, not do away with it. All the formalities regarding sacrifices were necessary so that one could approach God’s presence and still live, and Jesus became those sacrifices that were necessary at that time. Now we, as God’s followers, don’t have to follow all of those strictures. The blood that was necessary has been shed for the final time, but we still need to follow the basics of those laws. “He who has ears, let him hear.” Matthew 11:15