Friendly Atheist

Reminds me of the stories of early persecution of Christians.
I’d heard they were persecuted as cannibals because nobody non-christian was allowed into their ceremonies but rumor was they ate the body and drank the blood of someone.

Seriously, secret religious ceremonies in today’s age only leads to mistrust, just as it did then. I’m guessing it’s really very boring, but it’s THEIR boring ceremony and they don’t want to share.

I was raised mormon but never attended the temple. The mormons claim it’s not to keep things secret, but sacred. There are many things in mormonism kept secret until you’re already involved and doing them. The temple is the biggest example. The mormon church provides “temple preparedness” classes, but they don’t actually teach what goes on in the temple and the promises made – that is not found out until the member is going through initiatory ceremony, often with the pressure of family expectations.

Even weddings in the temple are only open to those who have gone through their initial run. I was excluded from my only sibling’s wedding despite being old enough. Women are supposed to wait until their marriage so their husband can guide them through the process.

Todd: Apparently Joseph Smith had a LOT of connections to freemasonry, so I’m not surprised about the connection!

It’s not til you get to temple that they teach you about Galactic Overlord Xenu.

Zar, that’s the scientologists, and that’s no big secret to anyone.

What it comes down to is respect. No, Mormons are not ashamed of what happens in the temples. They value the ceremonies and promises too highly to offer them to the world to critique. Any member of the church can go to the temple as long as they are worthy and willing to live the precepts taught by the church. They prepare for the temple in order to show respect to God. They ask that respect be shown for their beliefs.

Frankly, I don’t believe that satisfying the curiosity of the mob is sufficient cause to disrespect something thousands of people hold sacred. If it’s important enough to you to find out what happens in the temples, take the steps necessary to go there.

Big Love is an example of crude social fun. They take what one religious group holds sacred and publish it to the world outside of its intended context. There is no respect or honor by taking what one religion treats as sacred and showing it on a drama television show. I am truly disgusted by this show. I find this show has so many errors of the truth that it will have a huge negative effect on the LDS culture. Another big problem is nobody knows the difference between F-LDS, LDS, and Mormon. Anything with Mormon is part of the LDS church, which do Not practice polygamy. F-LDS is the Fundamental Latter Day Saints which still practice polygamy. The makers of Big Love have said that these characters are NOT LDS (Mormon).

“The term Mormon is not properly applied to the other … churches that resulted from the split after (Joseph) Smith’s death.” In other words, polygamous communities should never be referred to as “Mormon” polygamists or “Mormon” fundamentalists.” – From: LDS Response To Big Love
For information go to F-LDS or LDS (Mormons)

I think that the whole thing is disgustingly sad. I am not Mormon, however, these people do hold their temple ceremonies to be sacred. I think that it’s terrible that someone would try to exploit a process like this for T.V. ratings. Is there no respect for anything anymore? These people are generally the first to help out in disasters, they helped me through Katrina without asking anything in return. They are well organized, helpful, and kind. But there are too few out there who respect their faith and that’s a shame. Just because you or I don’t understand it or why they do it does not mean that we should be putting it all over television.

The ceremony is much like a play with a few pauses for participants to don the robe, apron, etc. as symbols and to also perform symbolic hand gestures. Much of it is lifted straight from Masonry. It’s extremely dull, other than the clothing and gestures, which make it kind of creepy in a “cult” sort of way. (I’m an exmo and attended the temple for several years.)

You can read a transcript of the ceremony here:

http://www.lds-mormon.com/compare.shtml

Note that the ceremony has been edited several times over the years. This link shows the changes that occurred in 1990.

I’m a practicing member of the Church. Naturally, I can’t answer for everyone, but I find it somewhat of a bother. I suppose the main thing that bothers me is that it feels like someone is abusing something important to me, ultimately, for profit. I have other concerns as well (such as the harm that can be done by expressing these things to people, particularly younger members of the Church who have not been through the temple, outside of the proper context), but they’re going ahead with it, so that’s that.

It’s not as if this would be the first time. In any situation involving this many people, nothing will be kept secret (which is why I don’t think “secret” was ever really considered the intention)

I expect some members of the Church will loudly and angrily protest and whine about it, because people handle disappointment in different ways.

However, I also expect that there will be no bombs, and no HBO executives knifed in the street, which, I think, shows a certain degree of maturity.

The temple ceremony isn’t really that secret anymore – ex-Mormons have published several versions of it on the Web. It’s almost like doing the nativity play or Stations of the Cross, except interactive. So content-wise, really not a lot to be secretive about, but the social and performative aspects of a “secret ritual” are obviously appealing.

Secret ceremonies have been part of “in group” behavior for millennia, so Mormon ceremonies aren’t something new and disturbing.
However, I’m ambivalent about this being shown. Regardless of your opinions about the Mormon church (I’m an atheist and I have nothing but scorn for their doctrines), people should be able to say “this is sacred to me, and it’s not for everyone else’s entertainment.”
We as outsiders are not entitled to barge into the private spaces of people in any culture.

Funerals, as far as I know, are not held in the temple. I’ve never heard of one and have never been to one. “Sealings” or marriage ceremonies are, but many friends have also had a civil ceremony to accomodate family and friends who could not go to the temple.

HBO should reconsider airing this episode. They obviously do not understand the repercussions this will have on their subscribers.

Is it right to make fun of the Pope for dressing differently? Or does it make it right to make fun of Hindus for holding the bovine as sacred since you may not hold the same belief?

What is it that is so threatening about a group that holds sacred ceremonies? And particularly the Mormons – is it because it is seen as exclusive or secretive so it is justifiable in spreading what they hold as between them and God? Is it so shocking that Catholic Nuns and Priests wear garb and make very similar promises/vows of chastity and poverty?

As a member of the LDS faith, I attend LDS temples regularly. I consider it a privilege. The intent is not to exclude anyone. The LDS faith actively proselytizes and temple worship is reserved for those who are disciplined within the faith. All are welcome, but all will not understand why it is sacred. Airing these details will make private matters public. It is a direct and purposeful defilement and should be regarded as such by anyone who watches it or supports that the ceremony be aired.

If you are really interested and investigate what has already been spread, you’ll find that you come up short on the shock value. 90% of it is taken from the Bible. So what makes it worse is that if and when you see portions of the ceremony, they will likely not be accurately portrayed because it’s just not as exciting as what it’s advertised to be. It’s not exciting; it’s intended to be deep in meaning.

HBO should reconsider airing this episode.

There’s nothing we’re hiding. It’s just right up there with why do not readily share experiences with others that have deep meaning. To us it’s as basic as why we all wear clothes everyday – there’s just somethings that we can keep to ourselves that shouldn’t be threatening and should be respected.

i completely agree, CatBallou. i think things that are sacred to people should be respected. people’s beliefs/practices are exploited on t.v. all the time, and i don’t really like it. i get what it means to be curious about something. but that doesn’t mean i automatically have the right to know all about people’s personal biz.
also this: “Women are supposed to wait until their marriage so their husband can guide them through the process” isn’t true. i have a lot of mormon friends. a lot of the single girls have gone through the temple. women can go whenever they feel like they are ready to.

I’m in a Fraternity, and I sure as heck would rather outside people not know the different secrets and rituals that my brothers and I share. Not the handshake (though it can be easy to catch), not initiation rites, none of it. Most of it is boring and rather unimpressive, but that’s not the point.

Part of what makes a fraternity unique is that you and a body of other men share something that only you know because you have all gone through it. Even if other people do similar things, that doesn’t detract from the fact that you and you brothers have all shared something which nobody else experiences to your knowledge.

The Mormons take it to extremes, it seems, but I don’t think you can necessarily hold them to blame for wanting to keep something exclusive. I never understood that until I joined up with my Fraternity.

Now, if they were going to attack them on a legal level, that’s a different story.

Mormons actually would love for all people to attend to temple. That is why we have approximately 60,000 missionaries throughout the world to teach the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Most churches have rituals that involve covenants with God, such as baptism and marriage. However, once you have made those covenants you are accountable for your actions according to those covenants. For example, once you have covenanted to be baptised and take upon you the name of Jesus Christ, you are responsible to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. The reason that not just anyone can attend the temple is because we want them to be ready to live according to the covenants they make. If someone is not willing to follow Christ in simple matters, such as Sabath observance, then they will not be ready to make other covenants. That is why it is sacred and why there are prerequisits for attending the temple.

We believe that all people, regardles of wether they accepted the gospel in this life or after, will be given a fair and equal opportunity to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ and either perform the saving ordinances or have them performed in proxy on their behalf. We want everyone to come to the temple. We do not want anything to be secret. We do, however, believe that covenants with God are sacred and need to be treated as such.

From what I’ve been told, the endowment ceremony is pretty bizarre. There’s a point in the ceremony where you wear nothing but a poncho while a priest gives you a full body annointment. And then they teach you one of the secret handshakes which you need to get into the right church in heaven. Apparently, Mormons swear to stop anyone from revealing this secret ceremony. I don’t know if it’s all true, but my source is an ex-mormon guy.

Has anyone here read Freakonomics? I recall a chapter about how the KKK ultimately came to be ridiculed, because someone went undercover and revealed all their secret handshakes and stuff. I thought that was pretty funny.

I just don’t feel that this is something that should be aired to satiate the curiosity of the average joe. Shaggy is right – I felt very differently until I pledged with my Frat.

Perhaps this is just the beginning though. Maybe next they can look into what really happens behind closed doors when they are choosing the next Pope.

Whatever does go on in the Mormon temples may be boring and bothersome… it may be lifted from free masonry – but it is special to those people and I don’t think that it should be depicted on television. I know that I wouldn’t want my Frat stuff depicted on Television…

(still a chance to edit) for Miller – it’s Highly doubtful that you get nekked and wear a poncho – I mean – half the people in the mormon church are old biddies – do you really think that they are all getting nekked??) That’s just not right -

The Mormons take it to extremes, it seems, but I don’t think you can necessarily hold them to blame for wanting to keep something exclusive.

I don’t blame them for wanting to keep this exclusive.

What I’m doing is wondering what makes their desire to keep it exclusive rule that non-members need to abide by.

For example, I’m pretty dang sure that Scientology doesn’t like their secrets publicized either. I’m wondering if declaring your secrets sacred means that they are allowed to stay secret when your members leave you.

I am LDS, active and a former bishop.

CatBallou makes a fair statement that applies to many religions besides mine. I was not raised LDS but have been a member for many years.

I do not believe that Jews would appreciate people coming in and filming everything that goes on in their religion or Catholics having all their conferences for bishops and church leaders filmed. Of interest, television never threatens to do so but Mormons are easy targets because they’re not “mainstream”, whatever that means.

Siamang, I have presided over and attended 50 plus funerals for members and a LDS leader does not exclude any family member from participating in any aspect of the funeral unless other family members request that it occur, e.g., a family prayer and last viewing of the body immediately before the casket is moved into the chapel. So, if some family members were excluded, it was at the request of the family, how exactly is that the Church’s fault?

So, I am really not sure what you are referring to in this regard. The only other situation where church members are involved is dressing the body of a person and that has to do with the same sacredness issues that started this whole bruhaha.

As for your example of throwing trash into your neighbor’s yard as being “sacred”, is that the best analogy you can come up with, it’s not logical or analogous. First, what goes on in a temple involves only people that choose to be there, it is sacred, it causes no harm to anyone, it affects no one else’s personal or property rights and it breaks no laws.

Your analogy is the equivalent of if I say it’s sacred to pull out a gun and shoot my neighbor, no one should be able to look sideways at that, COME ON, that is a ridicuous analogy and doesn’t really help you to understand CatBallou’s reasoning. It simply takes his or her pretty neutral stance and twists it very badly.

Also, Llewelly, I am really curious about how: “Widespread understanding of religious ceremonies will, I think, help people understand the reliance of religion on theatre, sophistry, and charlatanry”? There is no way that a TV show depicting part of what goes on in an LDS temple is going to give people a “widespread understanding” and that certainly isn’t HBO’s intent, is it?

HBO hopes to stir up “interest” by creating a controversy, which seems to be working given the number of emails I’ve received from LDS friends. But, I can guarantee you that HBO will not have a serious discussion of the rituals of the temple and even if they did, their opinions about what happened would not coincide with my opinions. In fact, I doubt that you could get 10 members who have attended the temple to agree on what happened because it is dependent upon the person’s understanding of symbolism and how that person is affected by the spirit that occurs during the temple ceremony. But, of course, we can expect that the directors, actors and producer will fully depict all of that in their 2-3 minute snippet, right?

Miller, either your friend has never been in a LDS temple or he’s a moron. What he states is completely untrue and a pure fabrication. So, please do not use a completely unreliable source to pass off fiction as fact.

It’s really unfortunate that HBO feels that they need to poke my religion for ratings. I’m sure not many people will get too upset but wait until they poke your religion, your fraternity, sorority or something else that’s important to you; then it will be terrible and the worst thing in the world.

I prefer that sacred things of any religion or culture be treated that way. HBO should be ashamed of themselves for airing something like this but ask me if I’m surprised. I grew up in So. Cal., my wife’s father was involved in the entertainment industry and nothing surprises me that comes from this group. They’ll do anything for a buck, and yes, I do mean anything. So, why would we expect that they would understand the “sacredness” of something like this?

I’ll pass on this HBO and anything else you have to offer. Aftr all, I can only vote with my remote, right?

It’s a fairly common feature of cults that they withhold information until the initiate’s investment is large enough.

There’s a couple reasons for this. The first is the mystery. Everyone wants to get to the centre and find out what’s there, so people will often make investments they wouldn’t otherwise just so that they can be “in” on the secret (how many stupid things did you do when you were a kid so that you could join some silly club that turned out dead-boring?).

Another reason is the power of imagination. In the horror movie industry, it’s common knowledge that a shown monster is never as scary as a monster kept in the shadows. This is because reality rarely lives up to our imagination. By keeping ceremonies hidden, you allow people to imagine that many wonderful things take place (such as being able to see God, as in some cults).

As for investment, this can come in all sorts of forms. The biggies are emotional investment (you’ve spent so much time and gone through so many trials) and financial investment (you’ve spent so much money). The human mind has the amazing capacity of trying to convince us that we’ve made the right choices by making us perceive things that we had to work really hard for as being much better than things we didn’t. This is why fraternities have hazing. At the end of it, individual loyalty to the group is all that much stronger because the process of getting in was difficult. People have devoted so much of themselves to the group that they have to convince themselves that the outfit poor Barb is wearing is actually dignified, or risk feeling like an idiot.

It’s pathetic that they would try to defend their cultishness by claiming “offence.” Isn’t it typical, though? The whole UN resolution fiasco we had recently is part of the exact same thing. It’s also sad that, in an age where the strategies of cults are so splayed out in the public eye and documented in hundreds of books, blogs, and television programs, that people seem no more prepared to resist them!

I’m LDS, aka Mormon. This probably sounds ridiculous to most people, but I am shocked that Big Love would disrespect any religion, LDS or other, to this degree. Mormons hold the temple and the ceremonies involved therein very sacred. It is not some weird secret thing that we have to be hush-hush about so that everyone doesn’t think we’re big weirdos. Rather, it’s held sacred because it is a beautiful place where the calming spirit can be felt. I say this as someone who has experienced the temple endowments and so on. I hold high respect for other’s religions and would not want to exploit things that they hold sacred. Therefore, it hurts to see others exploiting what we hold sacred by treating it as, basically, a joke.

“The ordinances and ceremonies of the temple are simple. They are beautiful. They are sacred. They are kept confidential lest they be given to those who are unprepared. Preparation for the ordinances includes preliminary steps: faith, repentance, baptism, confirmation, worthiness, a maturity and dignity worthy of one who comes invited as a guest into the house of the Lord.” – Boyd K. Packer

I love the temple. I’m not some weird cult member, I don’t have horns, I don’t think all religions are false, and I wouldn’t get involved in something that I didn’t feel was right and good. Let’s respect eachother’s religious beliefs a little more, shall we?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints has come under much scrutiny of late!
I don’t have a long intellectual argument to share…I would like to believe that those things that others find private, meaningful, and “sacred”, should be allowed to remain private. In a world full of filth and vulgarity why can’t a group of people quietly go about doing good be left to do just that.

It is sacred. A lot of people don’t know what that means because they could care less about religion or God. The things that happen inside the temple are affecting anyone on the outside.

I’m not a perfect member and haven’t been to the temple in more than 2 years, but I still hold it sacred and important. These are promises that we make between ourselves and God. How would you like private promises you make with your self or someone who was very close to you made public and screamed out at every street corner? How would you like it if people laughed at what you held to be important and sacred? It isn’t right.

Having been through the temple at one point in my life, I think the LDS faithful will be sure to create a stir about this.

The story of the temple endownment is pretty basic: the 6 days of creation and then some promises you must keep in life.

I’m curious to see how current they make this. Since I’ve did the temple, there’s been some changes (they don’t make you do the pseudo hand moving across your throat anymore).

Personally, if I was of the Mormon faithful, I would not draw any attention to this. It will only make people more curious. But you know that’s going to happen and this will be one of the most watched and anticipated “Big Love” episodes.

@Grimalkin:

You do realize that simply identifying similarities between a mainstream religion and cults does not make the religion a cult (or even “cultish”), right? I could probably point out many things you have in common with a child rapist–you have arms, legs, reproductive organs and a sex drive–but I’m not going to come to the conclusion that you are one.

So while the definition of “cult” is loose enough to describe pretty much any group of people, if you’re attempting to claim that “because the LDS Church appears to employ methods a, b and c, they must be extreme and outside the mainstream, then you are incorrect. As always, correlation does not indicate causation. And, as we may observe, Mormon doctrines by and large just teach people to (with wildly varying degrees of success) cherish their friends and families, live clean lives, be honest and hard working, and occasionally engage in social causes you don’t agree with. The remainder of the teachings are metaphysical afterlife stuff that shouldn’t matter to you one way or another.

@Miller:
I can tell you from recent experience that your friend was either mistaken or didn’t communicate the point very well. In the temple, Mormons only promise to keep the things taught to themselves. There is absolutely no commitment to constrain any other person in any way. In fact, the commitments made in the temple, besides the “no revealing this” stuff, can be found in the New Testament, i.e. law of chastity, law of consecration, being prayerful, that sort of thing. Except any weirdness a person might like to assign to it, it’s all completely harmless.

I am hugely opposed to the Temple ceremonies being splattered all over the television. The word sacred or private no longer exist in our society and that makes me sad.

The “lifted from Masonry” comments are quite naive. In Nauvoo, Illinois, there were more than 1500 members of the church that were masons in the early church. Yes, there are some similarities with masonry and the temple ceremony, but the temple ceremony didn’t *come* from masonry. If Joseph Smith had simply copied from masonry, do you think that these thousands of masons would have just ignorantly continued to follow mormonism? You have many very intelligent mormons in the church when it first started, and they were searching for truth. To simply “lift” from masonry would have been a HUGE clue to them. And the fact is, these early mormons didn’t view it that way at all, and didn’t leave the church when the temple ceremony started.

Where did Masonry get their ceremonies? This is actually the more relevant and enlightening question.

Jesus said “don’t cast your pearls before swine”, and, although that is a harsh statement, it contains the essence of the issue here. Some things are sacred.

As a member of the LDS church I often hear the complaints and criticism of others about temple ceremonies. I won’t attempt to explain why they are so sacred or why they are not shared with the outside world but I will attempt to ask fellow citizens to let the LDS faithful worship in accordance to the dictates of their own consciences. I assure you that nothing like abuse or weird sacrifices is taught in the LDS religion. We simply seek to worship and serve Our Savior Jesus Christ. I understand that many people have false presumptions about the church, the only way to find out the true background and teachings is to speak with actual representatives of the church.

The producers of Big Love hired people who left the church and possibly harbor negative feelings towards it and wish to harm it. HBO does not have the right to even attempt to display sacred ceremonies without the permission of the church.

I’m a Mormon. Any person can go into a temple during an open house, before a temple is dedicated-into every room. There is nothing to be ashamed of. I am concerned about accuracy and respect.

Big Love knows this is sacred to us and something we don’t share freely, yet here they are on tv for ratings sharing it. Automatically that indicates a lack of respect.

I would feel disrespected if a documentary portrayed a full temple ceremony merely for the sake of full disclosure; but at least there would hopefully be an attempt at accuracy. Big Love already portrays polygamy as a current Mormon practice, so we know accuracy is not their strong point. How much timne would I spend feeling disrespected…not long. Why bother? Aren’t we all too busy for that?

People who have left the church or those from different churches who practice polygamy would not be allowed into a Mormon temple.

There is actually very little we cannot talk about from the temple.

I’m a mom, so humor the analogy. It is easy for me to explain to my single friends how often my baby wakes up, how many diapers I change, how tired I am…but very difficult to explain the feelings I feel when I hold her and look into her beautiful face. That context is difficult to grasp. Any experience we value is difficult to really explain. That could be anything from a religious point of view, to skiing on fresh powder, climbing a mountain, creating something new… Words don’t always do an event justice.

The church doesn’t claim offense, though individual members may. If you want to see what the church thinks about it check out lds.org

[...] I don’t subscribe to HBO (or any Porn, for that matter [see earlier posts]). However, as the upcoming episode is in the headlines of the digital papers here in Utah, it got my [...]

While I understand the valid concerns of Mormons that their religion will be belittled unfairly, I hope that HBO does not back down. Here’s why.

Every religion, cult, or sect is going to have some “sacred” thing that they feel should not be tread upon. If we allow the religions to decide what everyone knows about them, all religions will be more free to abuse. The Mormon church is probably not doing many nefarious things, but if they are allowed to veto this TV show, then the Muslims will be encouraged to riot in the streets every time someone draws a doodle of Mohammed.

Most groups who keep doctrines and practices highly secret are hiding criminal or abusive practices. Someone else mentioned the church of Scientology, which claimed sacred privelige as an excuse not to tell new converts that they are a space alien cult. They wait until people have invested themselves in the organization before revealing the weird stuff.

Again, the Mormon church is probably much more benign.

If someone were saying that all religious ceremonies had to be opened to the public, I would agree that that should not be allowed to happen. This is merely a recreation of the temple, however, and there is a greater good to be had by not muzzling those who make such recreations.

Grimalkn,

You need to do some more research. The LDS church is not a “smaller/localised religion”. There are currently over 13 million members, worldwide.

Grimalkin, I find the reference to the LDS church as “small and localised” indicative of someone who is ill informed. The LDS church has over 13 million members, a good majority of which are outside of the U.S. and only a very small portion reside in Utah, although the church is much more populous in the west than elsewhere in the United States.

Most of the world has a skewed view of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It’s a lot like deal with muslims and terrorists. They think that because there is a small group of radicalists, the whole group are radicalists. Why don’t you do some real research of how the church works and operates before making uneducated posts on your opinions. lds.org go there

Would it be okay if we start putting television cameras in a Catholic church’s confessional?

Pointing it out again, because you say it often:

Did HBO put cameras in your church?

It is most certainly an issue of respect. To Latter-day Saints, the temple, and what occurs inside, are sacred things. I believe that even former members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints should show respect to current members by not sharing with the rest of the world things that are regarded as sacred.

I just want to say thank you to the people who are not of the LDS faith who defend it here and respect our beliefs.

Mormons don’t practice polygamy. It’s been over 100 years since the Church officially anounced that.

For me, this is about respect. There is too little respect for religion in this country. Too little respect for those that choose to believe in something higher and greater. People have lost their sense of respect. The majority of people have some sort of faith or belief, and they would like to have the respect they deserve since those are their beliefs. They do not want to be mocked or ridiculed for what they choose to believe in.

For Mormons, it is no different than Baptists, Lutherans, Protestants, Pentecostals, Catholics, Non-Denominationals, Scientologists, and so forth. They hold something very dear and precious and it’s being exploited for entertainment purposes.

Big love is about Polygamy – not the LDS Faith. The LDS People do not practice polygamy, and polygamists are not allowed into LDS Temples. So, to depict a scene where someone has to go through a Temple ceremony, and they are in a polygamist relationship, is totally false. So, why does HBO need to show a “temple” scene? Why did they hire ex-mormons to give them every detail in a ceremony, including clothing, that a polygamist would not be going through?

The producers of Big love should not have even touched on a temple ceremony with their show as it wouldn’t even be relevant. So, basically – for ratings – someone higher up just wanted to take something sacred and throw it out there for all to see –

Truly, this is a lack of respect. It’s sad what our country is turning in to… I am ashamed that some of you even call yourselves Americans.

I don’t think that whether they have a right to do it or not is really an issue. People have a right to make films or television shows about whatever they want but that doesn’t mean that everything that gets made is ethical or in good taste. I think we can all agree to that. I am fairly sure that there will be no lawsuits, that isn’t the issue. It is whether such a depiction is respectful or not. And clearly since the temple is such an important and sacred part about the LDS faith and Big Brother has already made an agreement with the Church that they would not depict these rituals as they plan to do that it is not respectful. Do they have a right to do it? Sure. But there are a lot of things we as people in a free country have a “right” to do but don’t because it is irresponsible and in bad taste.

This is fiction we are talking about, which gives you the right to create whatever situation or world you want to. I don’t think it is a terrible threat to the LDS church but I hope people understand that, while maybe using snippets of real concepts and religous practices, Big Love really is just a fictional world with fictional characters who have fictionalized belifs and practices. I am a big fan of a lot of doctor shows (ER, Grey’s Anatomy, Scrubs, House) and doctors are depicted in many ways but I don’t expect my real doctor or hospital to be like that in real life. I hope the same is true for whatever people see in Big Love.

Another interesting thing is that even mormons fictionalize their stories, history and experience for entertainment value. A great example of this I stumbled upon is an internet series called “The Book Of Jeremiah” at http://www.jer3miah.com. It is produced by members of the Mormon church and is an interesting mystery where spiritual events are depicted in a sort of sci-fi way along the lines of Heroes or Lost. Check it out and see for yourself. The Book of Jer3miah

Just the fact that a person albeit group feels the words and actions are sacred and should be kept private they should. In this “politically correct” world, HBO is only trying to stir the pot for their own gain. It’s truly sad to take something held so sacred by someone and toss it to the masses.

Did Texas authorities film the inside of the FLDS temple and display it for news when the YFZ ranch was raided? Why didn’t they?

As an independant producer I don’t see an issue with a depiction, but it seems to me they (HBO) are taking it further- to communicate the elements of the plot doesn’t need to go to the extreme of offense- regaurdless. I’m going to toss out that arugument on basis of “confession” is the character moving towards righting a wrong, to describe the seriousness of “covenants, rites of passage, ordinaces” would be sufficient for the plot.

HBO and overall society, you’ve all lost respect points from me.

Oh and just for thought 1st amendment rights allow religious freedom, let the LDS keep their sacred things sacred-

Skeptimal,

Ok, you got me, I started venting a little bit there, too true. However, my point is a valid one, confession in the Catholic church is institutional. In order to obtain forgiveness, it is mandatory, you don’t get to bypass the confessional and go directly to God, like some Protestant and evangelical Christian churches. So, my point is valid even if I did vent a little too much.

However, in my defense of venting, there is information out there that suggests that this isn’t merely coincidental that HBO is taking on the LDS Church or the timing of the attack.

As you are probably aware, Hollywood blames the LDS Church for passing Prop. 8 in California, never mind that 70% of all blacks voted in favor of it, 52% of all Hispanics and a slight majority of Asians and never mind that fact that if no LDS folks had voted, it would have still passed.

So, let me see, Tom Hanks is the executive producer of Big Love. A month or so ago, Tom Hanks comes out on a rampage and blasts the Church and its members as “Un-American” for giving money to the Prop. 8 campaign and voting for it.

A month later, the show is broadcasting the temple ceremony. Geez, it could be a coincidence or it could be Tom’s way of taking another shot at the LDS Church, notwithstanding the fact that his publicist suggested a public retraction was in order. After all, you don’t want all those Mormons boycotting all your future movies, do you Tom?

The timing of this is just too interesting to ignore when the California Supreme Court heard arguments on Prop. 8 just last week, then again, I think the free publicity and “buzz”, just look at how worked up I am, couldn’t hurt the show either, huh? LOL

Footnotes (which can’t be replicated):
Hippolytus, The Apostolic Tradition 23:14, in R.P.C. Hanson, Tradition in the Early Church (London: SCM Press, 1962, 32 http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.4226045/k.32E/Scripture_and_Tradition_in_the_Early_Church.htm
Johann L. Mosheim, Historical Commentaries on the State of Christianity, 2 vols, (New York; S. Converse, 1854), `:375-376 http://www.archive.org/details/historicalcommen185302mosh
Mosheim, Historical Commentaries on the State of Christianity, vol 1, 390-391 http://www.archive.org/details/historicalcommen185302mosh
The Sophia Jesu Christi, in NTA 1:246 In one other Gnostic document, the Apocalypse of Adam, it is related that originally such mystical instruction was given by three heavenly messengers to Adam. Jesuit scholar George MacRae summarizes:’ Father Adam explains how in the Fall he and Eve lost their glory and knowledge. Through the revelation imparted to Adam by three heavenly visitors, however, this knowledge is passed on to Seth and his seed.” MacRae, G.W., Introduction to the Apocalypse of Adam, in Robinson, ed., the Nag Hammadi Library in English, 256
Cyril of Jerusalem, Bishop and Theologian http://elvis.rowan.edu/~kilroy/JEK/03/18.html
Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 20, in NPNF Series 2, 7:146-148 (translated into English in 1951)
Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 21, in NPNF Series 2, 7:148-151 (see http://sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/207/2070037.htm )
Arthur McCormack, d (New York: Hawthorn Books, 1969(, 65
Jerome, Letter to Fabiola, quoted in Marriott, Vestiarum Christianum, 13-14
Wellnitz, “The Catholic Liturgy and the Mormon Temple,” 20
Hatch, The Influence of Greek Ideas and Usages Upon the Christian Church, 298
Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 23:21, in NPNF Series 2, 7:156 (see http://sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/207/2070037.htm)
Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 23:4-8, in NPNF Series 2 7:153-154 (see http://sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/207/2070037.htm)
Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 23:9-10, in NPNF Seies 2, 7:154-155 (see http://sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/207/2070037.htm)
Book of Mormon, 3rd, Nephi Chapter 19 http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/19
Gospel of Philip, http://wesley.nnu.edu/Biblical_Studies/noncanon/gospels/gosphil.htm
Widergren, Mani and Manichaeism, 52. Cf. Compton T.M., “The Handclasp and Embrace as Tokens of Recognition”
The Gospel of Philip, in Robinson, ed., The Nag Hammadi Library in English 142 (translated into English in 1977)
Ibid, p 139 http://wesley.nnu.edu/Biblical_Studies/noncanon/gospels/gosphil.htm
Ibid p.151 http://wesley.nnu.edu/Biblical_Studies/noncanon/gospels/gosphil.htm
Ibid p. 135 http://wesley.nnu.edu/Biblical_Studies/noncanon/gospels/gosphil.htm
David G. Hunter, Marriage in the Early Church (Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 1992 ), 15
Wagner, After the Apostles, 180
The Gospel of Philip, p 139 http://wesley.nnu.edu/Biblical_Studies/noncanon/gospels/gosphil.htm
Constantine’s reign as Roman emperor (A.D. 306-337) dramatically changed the direction of Christianity, though in ways far different from those portrayed in The Da Vinci Code. This grew out of his strategy for unifying his empire by creating a “catholic”—meaning universal —church that would blend elements from many religions into one.
While Constantine supposedly converted to Christianity in 312, he wasn’t baptized until on his deathbed 25 years later. In the intervening years he had his wife and eldest son murdered, and from all appearances he continued as a worshipper of the sun god. Long after his supposed conversion he had coins minted with a portrait of himself on one side and a depiction of his “companion, the unconquered Sol [sun]” on the other.
The “Christianity” Constantine endorsed was already considerably different from that practiced by Jesus Christ and the apostles. The emperor accelerated the change by his own hatred of Jews and religious practices he considered Jewish.
For example, at the Council of Nicea (A.D. 325), church authorities essentially replaced the biblical Passover with Easter, a popular holiday rooted in ancient springtime fertility celebrations. Endorsing this change, Constantine announced: “It appeared an unworthy thing that in the celebration of this most holy feast [Easter] we should follow the practice of the Jews, who have impiously defiled their hands with enormous sin, and are, therefore, deservedly afflicted with blindness of soul . . . Let us then have nothing in common with the detestable Jewish crowd” (Eusebius, Life of Constantine 3, 18-19, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, 1979, second series, Vol. 1, pp. 524-525).
Constantine’s affection for sun worship had earlier led him to endorse Sunday, the first day of the week and a day dedicated to honoring the sun, as a weekly day of rest in the Roman empire . This created considerable hardship on those Jews and true Christians who continued to keep the biblical Sabbath on the seventh day of the week. (A century later the Council of Laodicea would essentially outlaw Sabbath-keeping and Christian observance of the Old Testament Holy Days.)
Constantine’s merging religious practices produced a corrupted Christianity that meshed paganism with biblical elements; for example the followers of Isis adored a Madonna nursing her holy child. Many Christians did not make a clear distinction between this sun-cult [Mithraism] and their own. They held their services on Sunday, knelt towards the East and had their nativity-feast on 25 December, the birthday of the sun at the winter solstice.
” Did the empire surrender to Christianity, or did Christianity prostitute itself to the empire? When we consider the vast differences between the mainstream Christianity of today and the original Christianity of Jesus Christ and the apostles, we can trace much of that change to Constantine and the religious system he put in power. http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn64/code_impact.htm
“The working of divine agency in human affairs”

Big Love is not a comedy show. It’s a drama. I’ve seen the first 2 seasons and they don’t portray polygamy as mainstream mormonism. In fact they make it fairly clear that there is a difference. I’m a former mormon and their depictions of mormonism have been fairly accurate and fair. They’ve never poked fun at it that I recall. I don’t expect otherwise from this episode.

People are already complaining that it will be an unfair or inaccurate depiction and it hasn’t even aired yet. Can’t you withold judgment until you see it? Oh. Right. You won’t watch it because you’re already offended by it.

britt - Have you ever watched Big Love? The fact that you say ” Big Love already portrays polygamy as a current Mormon practice, so we know accuracy is not their strong point [...] People who have left the church or those from different churches who practice polygamy would not be allowed into a Mormon temple” suggests to me that you have no idea what you are talking about.

The show acknowledges that SOME current Mormons practice polygamy (which is completely true). Almost all the polygamist Mormons in the show live in a very small rural compound, completely segregated from the outside world. Much of the show’s drama stems from the family’s attempts to keep their polygamy secret from their Mormon neighbours – who DISAPPROVE of polygamy and frequently speak out against it. The family is not LDS (although the husband and the first wife used to be members, but they broke away when they decided to become polygamists). In fact, the family has no affiliations to any branch of the Mormon church. It’s really just silly for you to say that the show claims that Mormons are polygamists.

Honestly, try to know what you are talking about before you start trying to tell others what’s what. If you don’t want to watch the show, fine. Just don’t try to claim that you know what it’s about or what it portrays.

And by the way, I suspect that the scene in the temple will take place BEFORE the main character becomes a polygamist, as a flash-back. It is known in the show that he married his first wife while they were both LDS and that they were monogamous for about 15 years.

Dakulis - As a psychology major, I’d expect you to have a much better grasp of the idea that a general rule does not necessarily apply to every single case. When I say that sacred things are kept secret for this and that reason, I am not saying that EVERY SINGLE CONVERT converted just for those reasons. I thought that would be obvious.

That aside, I admit that investments are more reasons why you are unlikely to leave a group rather than why you are likely to join it.

I know what Cognitive Dissonance is, by the way. The Investment Theory is related, but it isn’t the same thing. Are you sure you were a psych major?

Molly - Worldwide, and yet almost entirely localised in North America (and, more specifically, around Utah). I think I’ve met maybe one or two Mormons since moving to Canada. I never met any in the U.S., and I hadn’t even heard of it before I moved to North America.

Compared to the likes of Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, etc., Mormonism is a “smaller/localized” religion.

Dakulis – “Ok, so we can agree, then, if it was actually a camera crew going into the temple and filming, that would offend you? But, an inaccurate representation by a comedy show making light of a temple ceremony, something that is sacred to me and millions of others, that doesn’t offend you? That makes perfect sense.”

Big Love is a drama, not a comedy. You are also assuming that it’s inaccurate when you haven’t see it. How can you possibly know that it will be inaccurate? Finally, how do you know that they will be making light of it? Having actually watched Big Love (something you obviously haven’t done), I can tell you that they treat most of what they touch with a fair bit of respect. I haven’t ever seen them just poke fun of any aspect of Mormonism.

“Moreover, I haven’t seen the show, and won’t, so I am merely assuming that they intend to show these scenes merely for “sensationalism” not to attempt to portray the very spiritual and important part that the temple plays in my religion.”

Do you know what happens when you assume things? Let’s just say, it ain’t good. For all you know, they chose to show the ceremony because they want to show how spiritual and important it is for the characters. For all you know, it could be integral to the story.

“This is a show doing something solely to rub a religion’s nose in it with no purpose but to offend and hold something up to ridicule, something that I hold to be very sacred.”

There you go again, assuming things you can’t possibly know. The episode hasn’t been aired yet, so how can you possibly claim to know the purpose of the scene? How can you claim to know what the producers’ goal was?

“Ok, you got me, I started venting a little bit there, too true. However, my point is a valid one, confession in the Catholic church is institutional. In order to obtain forgiveness, it is mandatory, you don’t get to bypass the confessional and go directly to God, like some Protestant and evangelical Christian churches. So, my point is valid even if I did vent a little too much.”

No, not even close. Confessions are institutional, yes. But by their very nature, they involve one person telling very private, damning, embarrassing, and potentially reputation-destroying things with the understanding that it will be kept completely secret. Priests are never EVER allowed to tell anyone what they hear in confession. Making a private confession public could mean completely destroying someone’s life – causing her family to leave, lose her job, maybe even go to jail.

Confession is an intimate thing. It would be like secretly filming a couple having sex and then posting it on the internet. It’s an invasion of privacy. A temple ceremony isn’t even close to being in the same category.

By the way, the show was on long before Proposition 8. Your conspiracy theory doesn’t fly.

Brooke – I’ve only watched to the end of Season 2 because my country is a little behind what’s on US TV, so I can’t tell you exactly why they would be at the temple.

However, I can tell you that the main character (I forget his name) and his first wife, Barb, were LDS and monogamous for about 15 years before they took in a second wife. They’ve also kept it a secret from pretty much everyone (except for a few characters who are also polygamists, but members of a breakaway cult and not LDS). A lot of the drama in the show revolves around trying to keep their lifestyle a secret.

My guess is that the episode will include a flashback to the main character and Barb getting married. In other words, they would have been LDS and monogamous at that point.

I’d also guess that the scene will probably be incredibly short, have nothing sensational or offensive, and will be a complete disappointment to all Mormons who decide to watch in the hopes that they will have something to feel angry about.

The current members of the LDS Church who are complaining on this blog (I never knew so many Mormons to read an atheist blog, I’m surprised) fail to understand that the Temple and its interpretation does not exclusively belong to the Church. It also belongs to those of us who used to be members as well. And, presumably, that would also be the case for the (fictional) former Mormons now practicing polygamy Bill and Barb Henrickson.

I can state from personal experience that the Temple endowment and associated experiences are as much a part of my psyche as they were when I was a member. (I resigned last November after Prop 8 and the Chad Hardy travesty.) I have dreams about the Temple, I occasionally think about it.

And for you members to say to me, a non-member (I am not going with this “former member” jazz, as I told the Church in my resignation letter, I want to go back to the status quo ante) that I cannot talk about my experience because it might offend you, well, see my first sentence. You don’t own the Temple and its interpretation and you cannot keep people from talking about it.

The Church has two choices in this matter: it can raise a stink (which is what PR is doing right now) or it can lay low. My suggestion is the latter. Why? Let me give you one very clear, salient example: the story of Xenu.

Fifteen years ago, Xenu was the closely-held secret of the Church of Scientology and part of its Operating Thetan III (OTIII) “scriptures.” To read about Xenu, not only did you have to reach a certain point in your Scientology processing, but you also had to pay a significant wad of cash (around $100,000 in 1994 dollars) to find out (one of) the secrets of the universe according to L. Ron Hubbard. The Scientologists went so far as to raid and sue people who made the story of Xenu public.

Fast forward fifteen years and Stephen Colbert can do an extended riff (most of a four minute sketch) last week on Xenu and his audience knows what he’s talking about. So much for secrecy.

You raise a stink, more people are going to want to know what the fuss is all about. My suggestion is to let this sleeping dog alone. For all you know, this could be tastefully done, not expose any oaths or secrets and just be a flashback to the day she got married to Bill. But I can just about guarantee you that if you raise hell, people will use their good friend Google to find out more. And what they find is NOT what you want people to see.

The stupid, it burns!
I’m astonished at how many LDS have come to an atheist site and begun rambling on about their religion.
Alisa, Erin, Alexandria–no, your religious beliefs are not entitled to respect. Your right to hold those beliefs, yes. But when people believe ridiculous things, they are and should be mocked.
Erin, your knowledge of the motives and religious beliefs of the “founding fathers” is laughable. Colonists who settled here to practice their own religions (many, many years before the “founding fathers” instituted a government) were themselves completely intolerant of other religions. Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, and many others were not even Christians, although they did believe in the existence of some sort of creator.
Alexandria, when you say both “there is too little respect for religion” and “The majority of people have some sort of faith or belief,” you demonstrate only your lack of critical thinking skills. Obviously if the majority of people are religious, there is plenty of respect. You’re just whining because SOME people don’t respect religion. Boo hoo. Don’t want to be mocked or ridiculed? Stop believing in absurdities.
Do your religious beliefs affect the rest of us? Of course. Not just in the specific, as with Prop 8, but in the overall functioning and progress of our shared society. Irrational people drag everyone down, they hold up social justice and scientific progress. Look no further than the ignorance of the “Intelligent Design” movement, and its attempt to undermine science education.

Lest you think I’m just picking on the poor, misunderstood Mormons, I think Grimalkin is way off base too. She conflates the notion of respecting the privacy of others out of courtesy with some legal right to privacy. That’s not what I was talking about at all. The notion that individuals are no longer entitled to courtesy simply because they congregate is just wrong. “For all we know, the Mormon church sacrifices babies”?? Please, you don’t think that for a minute. For all we know, every time you have a party with your friends, you sacrifice a baby. My earlier post made an explicit exception for criminal activity.

I don’t understand the problem here.

They aren’t barging in on anyone’s private ceremony, they’re simply showing what goes on in the ceremony. Non-Mormons seeing this won’t affect Mormons in any way.

And there’s no such thing as bad publicity, right?

The Mormon population is a lot smaller than Mormons claim. Mormons count ex-Mormons (who haven’t officially broken off from the church due to fear of negative social consequences) and dead people they have posthumously converted among their numbers. Trufax!

For me, this is about respect. There is too little respect for religion in this country. Too little respect for those that choose to believe in something higher and greater.

Too little respect for those that love people of the same sex.

They ask that respect be shown for their beliefs.

How about showing respect for someone’s relationship?

It is unfair that idle curiosity is taking precedence over who actually has a right to know.

It’s also unfair that childish prejudice takes precedence over who actually has a right to make their own decisions.

Whether we agree with their religion or not, is it really kind of us to encroach on something so important to them?

Whether we agree with someone’s sexual preference or not, is it really kind of us to encroach on something so important to them?

We live in a world where people mock what they don’t understand.

Not only do they mock them, they accuse them of being sinful and even ban their practices!

What is it that is so threatening about a group that holds sacred ceremonies?

What is it that is so threatening about two men or two women getting married?

As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints the temple ceremonies are something that are very dear and sacred to me.

As a person with many gay and lesbian friends as well as a healthy sense of empathy the chance to see my loved ones joined in matrimony is very dear to me.

You might disagree with all that we as Mormon’s believe in. Fine. But do we not also have the right to our understanding of the sacred, and be allowed the privilege of worshiping God as we deem appropriate for us? Why the need to poke fun and amuse yourself at our personal expense? If the sacred is sacred for even one, then who are any of us to treat it otherwise?

You might disagree with homosexuality. Fine. But do we not also have the right to our love, and be allowed the privilege of living our lives as we deem appropriate for us? Why the need to ban and oppress at our expense? If the loving is loving for even one, then who are any of us to treat it otherwise?

etc

(Seriously. Any of you who are offended by HBO but supported Prop 8 are hypocritical tyrants.)

There is are reason that we as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are quiet about the things we hold sacred, and that is because of shows like this, that make fun of the way we choose to worship. If you think of the things in your life that are most personal to you and then see them broadcast on television and scrutinized that would hurt… don’t you think? Think if it was you. What are the things you hold dearest to your heart?

It’s disrespectful and highly offensive to Mormons to show their special ceremonies on TV. That much is clear. Atheists and religious people alike need show respect for each other! This sort of foolishness just causes strife and contention, like the Danish newspaper’s cartoons of Muhammad. We have to learn to disagree without being disagreeable.

I think it’s been shown here that the members of the LDS church here complaining are wrong about the nature of the show, and likely wrong about the way this scene will be touched on in the show. Those who watch the show report that religion is touched on thoughtfully and in a generally tasteful manner. The complaints by people who are proud to have never watched the show ring all the more hollow for it.

But that doesn’t change my question, nor does the offense and calls for similar “respect” from foes of Prop 8. Prop 8 also offended my family, but I do not claim a right not to be offended.

That aside, I’m still waiting for a “good for the gander” similar situation in secular society. Is there something that grants similar “making a movie about this is OFF-LIMITS!!! and everyone better respect it!!” in non-religious society?

Let’s say I, Siamang, thinks something my local club does is similarly special. Let’s say there’s an atheist club, where we talk about atheist things. And we think that’s pretty special. Will all Mormons decide here and now to respect that and never say anything bad about what goes on in the seekret atheist meetings?

What if an atheist converts to LDS church? Can he never give a power-point presentation, or a skit or a movie showing the seedy underbelly of atheism?

What a sad world we are living in. If you are so curious about the events that take place in the temple all you have to do is read the Bible. It will be very boring for nonLDS to watch this dipiction and will be left saying what was the big fuss about? The people who value the ceremonies and their meaning are sick to see someone blast in on television for profit and personal gain(Tom Hanks). This country is starting to be one of religious intolerance and the free world is being slave to what some think “free” really means. The views that I have read that oppose the LDS all seem very angry. What have we done to you? Thrown stones and called you names? I don’t think so, it just isn’t in our nature. Make sure the ridiculous statements you are claiming are backed up by fact. Want to know more about the LDS religion? Read it’s main sources…The Book of Mormon and the Bible. Still have questions…try God. If you don’t believe in him there is no harm in having an opened mind and finding out for sure, right?

@Zar

if the same-sex community were as open about their relationships as Mormons are about their temples, prop 8 never would have been forced.

I find it interesting as a member of the LDS church who has participated in ALL the temple ordinances – that they would even put this in a television show. Interesting in the sense that I’m not sure how it ties in with the storyline because I’m not sure that the other “mormon” break off sects who do still practice polygamy (unlike the LDS church who stopped over a century ago before Utah was a state)have in their practice as far as as the temple ceremonies, or the clothing used in them. While they may have researched the ceremonies and the clothing as such information is readily available online to those who are curious, I still just don’t quite understand why they choose to confuse religions with each other unless confusion is the goal?

It does not bother me that they are doing this because showing such things does not detract from how sacred we hold them to be, or the reverence in which they are used. If people are really that curious, fine, let them see. It’s not going to help their understanding of the whole thing because it’s quite out of context.

As for “magical” underpants that keep getting mentioned – this term really makes me laugh. There is NOTHING magic about them. They are a reminder of covenants, just like many Orthodox Jews still wear only in different fashion (same idea) and they are a guide for modesty among the members of the church. We believe you receive blessings for wearing them as they are instructed to be worn (for rememberance and in obedience) but there are no magical properties in these undergarments – which are in fact more than pants. Again – look up pictures if you’re curious, but you won’t really understand the fully meaning to someone LDS unless you talk to one who understands those things.

There are so many people in this world who are anxious to find fault with all kinds of religion, any religion, any beliefs outside their own, and so much intolerance. I choose not to be one of those people who criticizes or cuts others down. It’s quite backwards of the tell tale signs of intelligence and maturity in human beings to mock what is sacred to others, and to cricize and ridicule. People really ought to get over the need to fling insults like grade schoolers – it’s very degrading to themselves.

Really, the LDS folks got their garmies in a knot over this? This is a television program, not an educational workshop on why the LDS Church is Odd. Move on and change the channel! I would hope the program stays true to the actual ceremony, that is about as respectful as I would expect them to be; then if they go and discuss how odd or flat out nutty the ceremony made them feel, good for them. Alternately, if the characters discuss the spiritual lift and completeness they now enjoy, equally fantastic.

The point is, sacred, secret, beautiful, weird, honest, or out of context, it is a television program! If you equate this episode to porn, and are so offended, then change the channel! Until the right of free speech is whisked away, executives, bloggers, actors, exmormons, reporters, you name it will talk about LDS temple ceremonies, sometimes in a documentary way, sometimes as a faith promoting story, sometimes as a great joke. It is all about perspective.

Last time I checked no one said a word about television programs creating storylines about abusive Catholic priests. Cause it was just entertainment, and we all like different types. Live and let live, and keep your ceremonies sacred in your home and keep mum. Of course, if your neighbor watches the show and asks about it tomorrow, then you might do better to just move.

No, Brian, gullibility and the lack of critical thinking skills are ripe for mockery. If you tell me that the stars determine you life, or that you believe in leprachauns, unicorns, and fairies, or a hundred other unfounded ideas, I will mock you. People whose ideas aren’t founded on reason are very seldom susceptible to conversion by reason.

You’re all whining that you want your religious beliefs to be “respected.” You know what the ultimate sign of disrespect is? Missionary work. If you really respected the religious beliefs of others, you’d leave them alone. But no, you’re so sure you’re right and they’re wrong! Hypocrites.

Any religious symbol (of which the Latter-day Saint Endowment is saturated) does two things… It reveals and it conceals. Paul spoke of the Gospel understanding as both milk and meat. For members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the temple teachings are meat. Those who have not had the milk will not understand the endowment, and will be confused by what they see. Inside the temple there is an atmosphere of respect and searching for truth. It is a sacred space. If you take the endowment out of the temple, and out of this atmosphere all that will be seen are the symbols. The true meanings will be concealed. Whatever is left can then be easily misunderstood. Anything out of context does not portray the intended message. On top of this, the characters of this HBO show are polygamous. Polygamists are not allowed in temples of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and therefore do not even participate in the ceremonies at hand. The writers of this show are intentionally trying to confuse this concept to the public. Yes, we hold these ceremonies sacred because it gives us a deeper meaning of who we are and what our relationship with Jesus Christ is. For all those who are LDS remember, “No unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, [and] nobly…” Let’s state that we do not like our pearls being strewn around, but after word turn the other cheek and let us bear up our cross. We are in good company.

Lots of posts but no one objects to the sexism? Really? She’s the one up for punishment…remind you of any other famous women in religion? Don’t watch, don’t really care. I’m just tired of the old patriarchal dance…

Thank you, Friendly Atheist, for taking the time to post what is going on in the religious world today. ((By the way, this was linked in through Google if you did a search on Big Love Temple Ceremony))

There have been many comments posted regarding secret vs. sacred – then we have the really nutty ones that turned this into a proposition 8 issue – even though Many of the visitors to this site don’t even live or deal with California issues.

I think that whatever HBO does, they have told the Mormon church that they would do it tastefully and respectfully – and I think that they should be given a chance to prove that they have done just that. It’s going to be aired whether Mormons like it or not and the best that they can do is be prepared to answer questions to those that may have it.

I agree, if a person chooses to have a faith or belief in a religion, then they should know about it, know it’s history, and definitely not force it on anyone else. A truly faithful person will study their faith and beliefs and understand that the Bible, through Jesus Christ, states that you are to Love your neighbors as yourself and that it is not up to you to judge – that is God’s job.

Cat – you should take it easy or you are going to give yourself an ulcer. My advice to you is to not sweat the missionary work being done – it’s done by JWitnesses, Mormons, Baptists, and many other faiths. Maybe that’s the only creative way they can come up with to “Spread the word” – who knows.

It has been very insightful reading the posts made here. As with everything in this world, there are two sides. When it comes to “respect” (As mentioned so many times) perhaps both sides deserve some respect. The non mormons who don’t want to have things shoved in their face, but are obviously curious about what happens behind the walls of those white buildings, and the mormons- who obviously hold these ceremonies in a very special regard.

I do not have the right to ridicule or disrespect you for your beliefs. You also do not have that right to ridicule or disrespect my beliefs.

Are our public schools really so bad that no one informed you of your fundamental rights?

If the Mormon church didn’t spend millions of dollars in attempt to negatively affect the real lives of other people who aren’t even in the same state they are, you’d probably see a little more ‘automatic respect’ for the church.

But as it is, since the Mormon church has demonstrated a complete lack of respect for loving relationships that have nothing to do with them, there’s little motivation for me to give the church respect unilaterally.

I say this, but I have absolutely NO desire to purposely/actively offend anyone in the Mormon church for no reason…..I’m just saying that the church (in my eyes, personally) and its highly organized/highly funded campaign to get marriage privileges taken away from same-sex couples ~ people whose lives have absolutely NO affect on theirs ~ has severely diminished my previous neutral-but-respectful attitude towards the Mormon church.

I am a convert to the LDS Church and am hurt that no one’s beliefs can be held sacred.

It is a shame how those who cry for tolerance are intolerant, and those who cry for equality don’t practice it.

It is sad that in today’s society common decency and respect really are not common after all.

tamarind…

Where did you get all of your information? You seem to be quite the expert.

Cat,

I am not saying that you should not criticize others beliefs. I have no problem whatsoever with the Big Love show. I think the tone of the show is not mocking, however.

I do think some Mormon things are crazy. I am also not sure I am right. I think it was Twain that said the surety with which I know that another’s religion is folly leads me to suspect my own. I do suspect my own, and I believe that others have a right to believe what they will.

When I say mocking is not nice, I would challenge you to find a great philosophical leader who recommends it. Gahndi, King, Confucious, Buddha, Jesus, dali lama. . All pretty wise guys and they were not fans of mocking others. You can mock anything you want, and Mormons should just suck it up and quit there griping (and they should), but I am saying it isn’t kind behavior.

I will freely give you that many mormon proselytizers are irritating, pushy, and out of line. Some very visible members of almost all groups are kind of jerks. I will also give you that the many of the posters believe that because they really are the right ones (they really know unlike those others that say they are right- they are special), they get special status. It’s BS. It goes back to the principle that this belief is a unique little snowflake- Just like all the others.

Still, don’t be a jerk to others even if they are a little weird is not some advanced theology.

Catballou,
Thank you for respecting our rites as LDS members. No “weak” arguments needed…in fact, no arguments needed at all. What is sacred is sacred. I for one appreciate your willingness to offer that.

I bet it is going to be a flashback involving the first wife who was raised as a mainstream mormon and is seen in temple clothes in the TV guide article.

Like catballou, I am a bit flabbergasted at the sudden influx of complaining Mormons on a thread at an atheist blog.

Folks, it appears that you have a poor understanding of your audience here. You’re clearly missing some rather fundamental aspects of what it means to be an atheist—on this blog, and indeed in American life generally. For one thing, we atheists do not, as a rule, grant your widespread presupposition that your declaration that some ritual or practice is “sacred” or secret thereby renders it off limits to our intellectual examination, critique, or—yes—mockery. Quite clearly you’re unhappy that various practices or beliefs of yours are not treated with the kid-gloved deference you’d prefer. Well, tough. That’s life in the adult world; that’s the nature of the free marketplace of ideas. Please suck it up and stop whining.

We who are not Mormons do not actually have a moral duty to respect your beliefs, much less your self-serving declarations that your ideas or practices are “sacred.” When we conclude that those beliefs and/or practices are irrational, silly, discriminatory, wasteful, or destructive, we have the right—both a legal right and a moral one—to say so.

Indeed, we have both a legal and a moral right to express our critical ideas, whether on a blog, in a book, in a speech, or on a television series. Quite evidently, you don’t like that critical examination. Equally evidently, that provides us with no responsibility to avoid hurting your oversensitive feelings.

Religious privilege—the unfortunately widespread notion that religious ideas or practices deserve to be protected from the slightest critique or intellectual attack—has the effect of rendering atheists and nonbelievers second-class citizens. Please stop trying to muzzle your critics merely because hearing and seeing what we have to say about your ideas makes you unhappy.

Multiple Mormons on this thread have appealed to “the sacred” as a value that must needs be respected. But many, many of us atheists do not concede that sacredness deserves deference:

The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas—uncertainty, progress, change—into crimes.

– Salman Rushdie

That man is demonstrably all-too-familiar with the dangers of “the sacred”—and his most infamous work has some bleedingly obvious parallels with the television show being discussed on this thread. The several wannabe Ayatollahs on this thread would do well to meditate on the parallels between The Satanic Verses and Big Love. Do you really want to side with Khomeini against Rushdie?

@AxeGrrl: I agree with you for sure, but I thought I’d pass along a funny little bit of food for thought at the extremely amusing risk of being flamed by MORMONS of all people, on an atheist board…

Someone pointed out to me recently, after this whole prop 8 debacle, that it actually would BENEFIT mormons to support gay marriage rights. This is because once marriage equality is uniformly and federally recognized in the US, mormons could then claim (not necessarily successfully, mind you) that they, polygamists, are a minority, and their rights to marry “as many damn chicks as they want” should be federally protected as well. So really, the further back they wish to send other minority groups in their fight for equal rights, the further back they send themselves, because, as I said in my earlier post, they seem to enjoy playing the part of crazy, myopic, close-minded cult that they appear. Now, typically, a cult-like religion would do well with making nicey-nice with outsiders, because, let’s face it, polydactyly is not especially attractive when you gotta see that person with 12 fingers every Sunday. But since mormons WISH to be so secretive and, frankly, bitchy about their precious beliefs, maybe they should have kept their noses out of gay people’s business. They got a hell of a lot of nerve being upset in any fashion about any backlash they might have received from funding a hate campaign. It would be like if the KKK were suddenly confused as to why most people don’t like them. Not that mormons and the KKK are the same or anything. I’m just saying it’s a little ridiculous.

Kevin said:

What is sacred is sacred.

Indeed.

Does the Mormon church only respect what is ’sacred’ to its own members? or does that ‘respect for sacredness’ extend to what those outside the church hold as ’sacred’?

I ask this as though it’s a rhetorical question because the Mormon church’s actions in the Prop 8 decision clearly suggest that they don’t respect things that other people consider ’sacred’.

Please don’t ask for respect that you don’t reciprocate.

Yes, it’s as simple as that.

Dakulis said: “The timing of this is just too interesting to ignore when the California Supreme Court heard arguments on Prop. 8 just last week, then again, I think the free publicity and “buzz”, just look at how worked up I am, couldn’t hurt the show either, huh?”

Although I can’t say with certainty about this particular episode, most commercially produced shows that require a lot of research have to be written months ahead of time, so the timing is *probably* coincidental.

Is the episode going to be respectful? I don’t know. The plot line involves some Mormons taking vengeance on the lead family for trying to expose a historical letter that “proves” the church never intended to end polygamy. Up to this point, the portrayal of the LDS Church has been respectful and, frankly, uncontroversial.

As to whether this treads on sacred ground, I don’t see how it *can* without actually filming inside a real temple. Although I’m not a Mormon, so there are probably sensitivities I’m not goint to fully “get.”

Please understand that some very destructive groups have hidden horrible and abusive practices under the guise of “sacred” rituals. Does the American public have a *right* to know what every religious group does behind closed doors? No. But worse harm would come if respect for others’ religion was taken so far that no one could talk about anything that wasn’t first approved by the group itself.

Would you want a bunch of people watching you have sex? Would you want a camera in your room while you do it? Would you want a movie made about the ways you are intimate with your spouse?

That’s what it feels like to the LDS people. This is a VERY sacred ordinance to them- as sacred as sexual relations with their spouses.

An LDS person feels totally violated when these things are made known publically.

Throughout history there have been temples that only certain members were aloud to enter- you have to be prepared to make those sacred covenants.

It’s like a preschooler, you wouldn’t want to have to a preschooler be responsible for the calculus you tried to teach them. They don’t understand it- so if you expected them to teach about integrals- they would have no clue.

The same goes for this temple ceremony. Everyone who is not spiritually prepared does not understand the deep meaning and covenants made therein.

ANYONE can enter the temple. It’s no secret. You just have to be living a chaste and worthy life first.

My experience with mormonism is that it is a lot less strange than most other religions. How about the ornate outfits that Catholic leaders parade around in, chanting, swinging candle things, or Jewish hats with ringlets hanging down, Jewish women with shaved heads and wigs, Turbans and hair thats never been cut, Red dots on the forehead, and countless other symbols that religion uses to set themselves apart or worship God. I have no interest in making followers of any religion feel uncomfortable about it. It’s general courtesy. I don’t think mormons are in any way ashamed of their rituals, but uncomfortable that they are being disrespected so rudely. This is just another example of the liberal media, to whom nothing is sacred, targeting people of faith as dumb and/or fanatical so they can feel better about their meaningless lives. The religious majority can see through that, and the rest of the floundering population can watch the show.

If the author is a friendly atheist I would hate to meet an unfriendly one. If you had a nice family portrait and say everyone did not look so nice or were too perfect would you like it put on TV where people would discuss the looks of your family. This is like a guest going through the bathroom cabinets. The friendly atheist is not so friendly.

awww poor little mormons getting upset…

@Sonia.. it’s spelled ALLOWED not aloud… gee those mormon schools sure are good..they can’t teach spelling but they can sure teach hate crime !

I am not a religious person, but I think it is sad whenever someone’s sacred beliefs are exploited for entertainment purposes. If people don’t believe the teachings of a faith, why do they care what goes on in the ceremonies of that faith? As a society, we should really rexamine our morbid curosity for things like this – especially if we label ourselves as “open-minded.”

Sonia wrote:

Would you want a bunch of people watching you have sex? Would you want a camera in your room while you do it?

Presumably not. Now, who is photographing you having sex without your consent? Or photographing you doing anything without your consent? Who has put a “camera in your” temple?

You are attempting to declare the any and all portrayals of an entire category of activity off limits. That is not analogous to you (or me) being watched or photographed in any context.

No, I’m happy that there are no cameras in my living space filming me and my partner having sex. Nonetheless, I recognize that there is a rather prominent industry devoted to filming people having sex. As long as the actual people involved have given valid consent, I think that’s just fine; I do not have a difficult time recognizing the major differences between the sex in an ordinary pornographic film and the sex that goes on in my bedroom. You seem to be having a difficult time noticing the differences between an equally dissimilar pair of experiences.

That’s what it feels like to the LDS people. This is a VERY sacred ordinance to them- as sacred as sexual relations with their spouses.

Then you have absurdly overdeveloped senses of personal offense and deference to your ideas and practices. If what you say here is true, your sensibilities do not deserve to be taken seriously.

You can’t shut down the free marketplace of ideas just by complaining that you really don’t like it. As I said: tough. Suck it up and stop whining.

Throughout history there have been temples that only certain members were aloud to enter- you have to be prepared to make those sacred covenants.

It’s like a preschooler, you wouldn’t want to have to a preschooler be responsible for the calculus you tried to teach them. They don’t understand it- so if you expected them to teach about integrals- they would have no clue.

If you think that analogizing us Gentiles to preschoolers is going to result in us seeing you in a positive light, or indeed taking you seriously, you are clearly mistaken. To put it mildly, we remain unconvinced that there is anything about your religion that is beyond our intellectual competence.

Non-Mormons “understand” lots of things just fine, Ma’am. The fact that we disagree with you—say, about the value, sacredness, or absurdity of temple rituals—doesn’t actually demonstrate a failure of understanding. In various areas, we just happen to think you’re wrong.

Old Beezle
I think you brought up some really good points:

1. It is good for members of the LDS faith to be contributing more accurate views of the religion they are willingly a part of vs. the prejudice views of those who left it. Even if those views are the “Sunday school answers” others weren’t willing to accept.
2. Another excellent point you brought up is the need for continual learning with accusations that Mormon Christians should learn more of their history. Their history is Christian history. I loved the connection so many (yours especially) have made with Joseph Smith and the Masonic-style rituals. The usage of that particular talking point only illustrates that need you (and all of us) have for the aforementioned continual learning. Of course there are similarities between the two and many others for that matter. Members of this faith believe that all those truths (including those pertaining to the temple) God has revealed to us, were eventually scattered, change, or lost all together after the death of Christ’s apostles. So the “restoration” that Joseph Smith claimed God called him to do was a gathering back of ALL those bits and pieces of truths, some of which indeed were practiced already by others. Again, I guess there is always a need to learn a little more history. Like the history of the church Christ organized. What ever happened to that one?
3. Along those lines you mentioned the humor you found “that god’s sacred endowment has been changed so very many times.” Can He do that?! I mean seriously, what right did He have, through Jesus Christ to change from the law of Moses, (which also became subject to scattering, change, and lost of full understanding) to the higher law of the Gospel of Jesus Christ?! Who is God to teach and correct and reinstruct?!
4. And lastly, Joseph Smith was killed because he ordered a printing press destroyed. Just like Jesus Christ was killed for the alone fact that He claimed He would be resurrected in three days after His death. Let’s just ignore the previous three years (in the case of Christ) ministry and attribute it to that one claim alone. My point is, that your point (the truth that was in it) was merely the straw that broke the camels back.
So again, thanks for bringing up these awesome points! And to think at first, I thought your comments reeked of prejudice.

I keep reasking this question, because nobody yet, of the dozens of Latter-Day Saints posting here, has seen fit to answer it:

What secular thing that atheists do as a group will garner tit-for-tat widespread “respect” from Mormons?

What will all of you declare as similarly off-limits from any church-produced films, lectures, skits, power-point talks, animations, youtubes, etc?

Because if the “respect” only goes one-way, then it’s not actually respect, it’s fealty.

I’m asking this because, as a group, I haven’t been feeling a lot of respect coming FROM LDS members.

A little late, but I don’t understand the comments from some LDS members here. They keep indicating that HBO is airing this to marginalize or make fun of the sacred rites and ceremonies.

Anyone who is actually familiar with the show knows that won’t be the case. Big Love has consistently treated the characters’ belief system objectively and without judgment. Beyond that, it sounds like they are going to great lengths to be as accurate as possible to minimize misunderstanding. I don’t see how any of this conveys disrespect – it is in no way analogous to defacing a family portrait or airing a couple in coitus – but religious people obviously think much differently than me.

One of the principle themes of the show is the struggle to live religious traditions in the modern world, and it has rarely been anything but sympathetic.

I think it’s a great show, and it’s enjoyed by many religious people, as well as the non-religious.

Lastly, I hardly think the LDS has any standing to complain, after just recently being at the forefront of a movement to destroy the families of thousands of homosexuals in California. Talk of sacredness and understanding fall really flat coming from these people.

I went to the official website for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Below is a link that proclaims their stance on the Big Love episode that will be portraying the sacred ceremonies that are done in the temple.

I found it fascinating that there are no angry feelings exhibited by the leaders of the church. Please take the time to educate yourselves and understand both sides of the story.

http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/the-publicity-dilemma

Siamang –
I want you to know first, that I am LDS, and Second, that I was married to an Atheist for 10 years. That being said – I want to re-enforce what you already know for yourself, I am sure.

First off, in dealing with Respect – that is up to an individual, not a group. I have a great deal of respect for my (now ex) husbands non beliefs, and he respects my beliefs. We are still the best of friends. That is part of maturity. Many LDS Members have already learned this type of maturity and are not floating around on this site arguing with you guys. The ones that have not learned this respect for others, are the ones feeling the most need to argue back about how they themselves are not being respected. **In my defense – the reason I am on this site is because I wanted to read about what others were thinking – this seemed to be a good place to start**

Second – I find that many things are offensive to have put up on TV. My mother was raised catholic, and I do not agree with having their religious ceremonies pasted all over the TV. Even though I am LDS, I also go to Mass on Easter and Christmas. I choose to learn about other faiths and if I find I have more interest in learning about it then I ask them directly instead of going through a television program, as TV will distort anything to make the ratings go higher. One of my favorite places to visit is sacred-texts.com, and I invite anyone to go there to learn about other faiths.

Though it will happen, I do not feel that all Mormons should be defined by a small group of people that have responded on this site. The church is made up of more than 10 Million members, and I see but a small fraction of them posting here. The same issue goes for this proposition 8 stuff. I have MANY gay and lesbian friends and I love them all regardless of their choices. I respect their decision. I also have my own beliefs and they respect those. The church did not fund the war against Prop 8, as many would like to think – but many of the LDS Individuals in California did donate to this. So, why is it that the whole church is being thrown under the truck for those in California who made that choice? How is it so quickly forgotten that even the Catholic church stood beside the LDS faith when it came to Proposition 8. (View) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv72urCWJcU

Again, I digress – that is not what this is about. My point is only to state that Each person should be evaluated on an individual basis. It seems that mature people can do this, and the less mature sit around and whine or complain or attack others. And, Siamang, there is not one person who will come up with a list for you about what should and should not be shown, because each of them find different things that they hold to be more sacred than the others.

If you were speaking to me individually, I would say that you could show just about everything in the temple, except the signs that are given. The rest of everything can be found in the Bible and even though I hold the bible to be very sacred, it’s not a secret at all.

I wish this site the best as each of the posters on it. Intelligent thoughts have been posted and I have been more enlightened by being here and reading the responses, and for that I am grateful. Thank you.

Siamang, asking for original thought from people trained since birth to parrot what they are told is something of an exercise in futility, as evidenced by the two non-answers you have already gotten.

Anonymous, you went on and on about respect, but you DIDN’T answer the question.

Kevin, you didn’t answer the question either. You just reiterated that some things should be sacred and not for public scrutiny, with no reason given for that, except that gosh darn it, they just SHOULD (which is not any kind of an answer). Nor did you demonstrate why actors showing a ceremony is equivalent to showing people’s private moments, although you claimed that it is. It’s not.

I’m not holding my breath for any an answer that actually addresses Siamang’s question, as that would require original, coherent thought. It just doesn’t seem likely.

Perhaps, Gullwatcher, you did not fully interpret my response. I basically stated that Widespread respect is not something that can happen – it’s something that needs to take place on an individual basis. His question cannot be addressed fully the way that he’s asking it – he’s looking for widespread respect – and that’s difficult to do when individual personalities and preferences are in play here.

If an individual Atheist and I were to get together, I am certain that a mutual respect could be reached. However, I have met atheists in my ex-husbands group, that only want to argue, and in that situation, where there is only argument, I am sorry- but no agreement is going to be reached. However, just because an argument ensues, does that mean that I should disrespect all atheists? No.

So, not to bring you down man – but- I don’t think that you understood the response… or maybe you didn’t read the question in the first place. But, by all means, PLEASE hold your breath. It might help. If Siamang were to be more specific in his question, I would be more specific in my answer. Instead, he asked for a general response, and that’s precisely what he got.

Wow, this place has been overrun by Mormon trolls. This must have been posted somewhere in mormonland.

One thing: I don’t care about yours (or anyone else’s) make believe God, gods, or rituals. You could have a circle-jerk in the temple for all I care. So long as no one gets hurt, and all are consenting adults.

I don’t respect religion, or “beliefs,” a priori. It is a fallacy to say that just because someone has “faith,” that faith should be respected. I don’t respect other’s belief in Santa Clause, Fairies, the Easter Bunny, garden gnomes, etc. It’s a fairy tale for grown-ups, and well, just plain silly. Not that religious beliefs should be trampled upon willy-nilly, but I’m tired of believers demanding “respect” for their belief in an imaginary friend.

When you were a kid and someone told you there was no Santa, you were free to continue believing, but don’t be surprised if the rest of us point and laugh at you.

For anyone interested in the power of dragging things into the light, I recommend chapter two of Freakonomics (as miller mentioned), or the 03/25/2005 episode of This American Life, both of which recount the story of Stetson Kennedy, and how he helped to break the power of the Klan by revealing their secrets (ceremonies, handshakes, and code words), and specifically by revealing those things in a fictional context.

Some things NEED to be exposed to the light, so they can be seen for what they are.

Anonymous Says in her 3rd paragraph I have MANY gay and lesbian friends and I love them all regardless of their choices. I respect their decision.”

Excuse me gay people do not CHOOSE to be gay…when will god-squadders of all persuasions..whether catholics or silly magic underpants wearers get this thru their indocrinated skulls..

I also thought it was a nice touch for her to blame “individuals” and not the whole Church…maybe the LDS should do that when the LDS Church says in California that all gays are child molesters. It goes both ways Missy

GullWatcher:

Some things NEED to be exposed to the light, so they can be seen for what they are.

“It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry.” –Thomas Paine

Mormons will not discuss the temple ceremonies openly despite it being an essential part of being an active member and on their path to achieving ‘glory.’ Reveal your secrets if they can stand the light of day and the scrutiny of your peers!

from your own Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 30:17,

There is nothing which is secret save it shall be revealed; there is no work of darkness save it shall be made manifest in the light…

Truth can take a beating and still be true. It’s time to put your truth to the test. Big Love will air and your works will be in the open…to either flourish by their merits or wither away.

Kevin says:

A final thought: there are issues that are simply not for public scrutiny. For example, the specific, individual and personal wonders and beauties that are expressed between intimate partners should never be allowed to be debated in a public forum. These emotional based experiences are unique and should be treated with tremendous respect and confidentiality. They should never have to be defended or debated.

OH REALLY?? Then what, exactly, did you think you were all doing in the whole Prop 8 debacle last year? I tell you — you were doing EXACTLY THE SAME THING you claim now, nobody should do to you.

Why do the rules you’d like to have everyone play by, not apply when we’re not talking about you?

I mean, wow!

Scott Van Tussenbrook
Los Angeles, CA

Old Beezle, I’m with you on nearly all of this stuff, but:

It’s time to put your truth to the test. Big Love will air and your works will be in the open…to either flourish by their merits or wither away.

Meh. My prediction is that Big Love will air, there will be minor expressions of outrage, the whole thing will be forgotten about in a few weeks, and Mormonism will neither “flourish by [its] merits” nor “wither away” any time soon.

My prophecy is this: nothing terribly interesting will happen in the near future.

That’s usually a safe one.

When your god is right and you are always right, then other people’s rules seem to apply less and less to you. That is the danger of all religion–especially the mormon variety.

I imagine a lot of Mormons don’t like it because it portrays an aspect of Mormonism (polygamy) that many of them don’t subscribe to. But it seems like they still do take part in these ceremonies.

I see a lot of Mormons commenting on this show. We are not polygamists! We are the only REAL Mormons! (regarding other sects of their religion)

After reading this and watching the Prop. 8 circus on CA this past year it seems to me that many Mormons only seem to see the world in terms of THEIR needs, what is sacred to THEM. I don’t see much evidence of any universal perspective. Lots of arbitrary absolutes.

NEW YORK (AP) — Holocaust survivors said Monday they are through trying to negotiate with the Mormon church over posthumous baptisms of Jews killed in Nazi concentration camps, saying the church has repeatedly violated a 13-year-old agreement barring the practice.

Leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints say they are making changes to their massive genealogical database that will make it more difficult for names of Holocaust victims to be entered for posthumous baptism by proxy, a rite that has been a common Mormon practice for more than a century.

But Ernest Michel, honorary chairman of the American Gathering of Holocaust Survivors, said that is not enough. At a news conference in New York City on Monday, he said the church also must “implement a mechanism to undo what you have done.”

“Baptism of a Jewish Holocaust victim and then merely removing that name from the database is just not acceptable,” said Michel, whose parents died at Auschwitz. He spoke on the 70th anniversary of Kristallnacht, the Nazi-incited riots against Jews.

“We ask you to respect us and our Judaism just as we respect your religion,” Michel said in a statement released ahead of the news conference. “We ask you to leave our six million Jews, all victims of the Holocaust, alone, they suffered enough.”
. . .
In 1995, Mormons and Jews inked an agreement to limit the circumstances that allow for the proxy baptisms of Holocaust victims. Ending the practice outright was not part of the agreement and would essentially be asking Mormons to alter their beliefs, church Elder Lance B. Wickman said Monday in an interview with reporters in Salt Lake City.

“We don’t think any faith group has the right to ask another to change its doctrines,” Wickman said. “If our work for the dead is properly understood … it should not be a source of friction to anyone. It’s merely a freewill offering.”
. . .
Only the Jews have an agreement with the church limiting who can be baptized, though the agreement covers only Holocaust victims, not all Jewish people. Jews are particularly offended by baptisms of Holocaust victims because they were murdered specifically because of their religion.

Michel suggested that posthumous baptisms of Holocaust victims play into the hands of Holocaust deniers.

“They tell me, that my parents’ Jewishness has not been altered but … 100 years from now, how will they be able to guarantee that my mother and father of blessed memory who lived as Jews and were slaughtered by Hitler for no other reason than they were Jews, will someday not be identified as Mormon victims of the Holocaust?” Michel said Monday.
. . .
Church spokesman Otterson said the church kept its part of the agreement by removing more than 260,000 names from the genealogical index.

But since 2005, ongoing monitoring of the database by an independent Salt Lake City-based researcher shows both resubmissions and new entries of names of Dutch, Greek, Polish and Italian Jews.

The researcher, Helen Radkey, who has done contract work for the Holocaust group, said her research suggests that lists of Holocaust victims obtained from camp and government records are being dumped into the database. She said she has seen and recorded a sampling of several thousand entries that indicate baptisms had been conducted for Holocaust victims as recently as July.
. . .
In May, the Vatican ordered Catholic dioceses worldwide to withhold member registries from Mormons so that Catholics could not be baptized.

The Mormon Endowment ceremony is unique in that it is a secret thing that can’t even be discussed between a Mormon husband and wife in the privacy of their own homes. As far as I know no other “mainstream” religion has such things. When a movie or TV show depicts Holy Communion at a Catholic church I never hear Catholics complaining that their “sacred” rituals are being exposed. Do Methodists, Baptists, Episcopalians, Presbyterians have such things? Not that I know of. I checked with a Jewish friend of mine. He knows of no similar thing in Judaism.

Mormonism’s temple ceremony is the pinacle of the religion. It is where the most important and binding covenants are made by Mormons. Now since the Mormon Church sends out 60,000 full-time missionaries as the vanguard of an agressive policy to “convert the world,” and since Mormons are active in politics at all levels (often on direct ecclesiastical orders–see Calif’s Prop isn’t it incumbent that we should know about it? This idea of “we are here to convert all your neighbors but it is an ‘atrocity’that you actually show what we do behind closed doors wears thin.

If the Mormons want to be left alone then they should be like the Amish and leave everyone else alone. However they seem to want it both ways, they want to be a force in the world but don’t want to be looked at too closely. As it is Big Love is doing the right thing. Kudos.

I doubt anybody reads anything way down here (I haven’t even read it all), but Siamang’s question deserves a response:

“I don’t blame them for wanting to keep this exclusive.

What I’m doing is wondering what makes their desire to keep it exclusive rule that non-members need to abide by.

For example, I’m pretty dang sure that Scientology doesn’t like their secrets publicized either. I’m wondering if declaring your secrets sacred means that they are allowed to stay secret when your members leave you.”

There’s no enforcement of these secrecy rules in the sense that you want.

Why is it that I don’t punch you in the face? Is it just because I’m afraid to go to jail or get sued? No, it’s because I know that even though it won’t hurt me physically at all, it will hurt you; and because of decency and respect, I don’t want to hurt you.

If you’re not guided in this case by rules of decency and respect and only look to enforceable rules of society to guide you, then I pity you. That’s part of the point of the Mormon temple ceremony–they agree to be guided by additional rules because they think those rules will, in addition to other things, make them and their community better.

Far be it from me to go all pc, however, and say that hurt feelings or sensibilities should become an automatic societal veto. Political correctness just takes that point to an illogical extreme in the other direction.

Here, the situation is at the complete other end of the pendulum swing: I doubt HBO, in its profit/ratings calculus has assigned adequate importance to LDS and others’ sensibilities.

But it’s HBO. Who, least of all Mormons, still expects decency from HBO?

the brunt of a bigoted minority

meant

“…brunt of a bigoted majority…”

Grimalkin,

I was a psychology major, probably before you were born, lol. So, what we got taught then came right after they taught us about the invention of the wheel and fire. That said, my brother just retired from teaching business in a major university and his thesis was about the early concepts in the development of “investment theory” and it does have some similarities and important characteristics of cognitive dissonance. As I pointed out, I thought several of your points were valid, just not well supported by something I could hang my hat on.

As for my “assuming”, I prefaced the points by conceding I was venting, i.e., leaving logic for the moment to discuss my emotions. Did you miss that part? So, I recognize I deviated from reason and reasonable argumentaion. The point I was making to you was to give me the same courtesy. If you are going to express your opinion or your view of a theory, tell me but if you’re going to express it as proven, then prove it. That’s a distinction that you should be able to pick up.

Finally, you really do need to work on your reading comprehension, here’s what I said:

As you are probably aware, Hollywood blames the LDS Church for passing Prop. 8 in California, never mind that 70% of all blacks voted in favor of it, 52% of all Hispanics and a slight majority of Asians and never mind that fact that if no LDS folks had voted, it would have still passed.

So, let me see, Tom Hanks is the executive producer of Big Love. A month or so ago, Tom Hanks comes out on a rampage and blasts the Church and its members as “Un-American” for giving money to the Prop. 8 campaign and voting for it.

A month later, the show is broadcasting the temple ceremony. Geez, it could be a coincidence or it could be Tom’s way of taking another shot at the LDS Church, notwithstanding the fact that his publicist suggested a public retraction was in order. After all, you don’t want all those Mormons boycotting all your future movies, do you Tom?

The timing of this is just too interesting to ignore when the California Supreme Court heard arguments on Prop. 8 just last week, then again, I think the free publicity and “buzz”, just look at how worked up I am, couldn’t hurt the show either, huh? LOL

How, did you torture that statement into saying that the show was “anti-Mormon” over its 2 year history. I simply provided relevant, current background of events that have occurred in the past 6 months – the Prop. 8 controversy – and more recent events involving the show’s executive producer going on a rant against the LDS Church, shortly before this episode airs.

Moreover, I didn’t express it as fact, see my explanation above, I expressed it as a theory or potential explanation for the show’s current episode and the timing of it.

Scott,

Prop. 8 was “mean spirited” in your mind but not mine. You were raised LDS, you know the doctrine and you understand some of the reasons why the Church took a stand on this. I know this for a fact because my son is gay, is a returned missionary and we have had many discussions about “marriage” versus “civil unions” or something different that still provides all of the rights of a civil joining without use of he word, “marriage.”

However, I need to correct a few points. Yes, members did contribute their own funds towards Prop. 8. No, the Church did not contribute a dime to Prop. 8. You can look at the required public disclosure documents and you will not see anything donated by the Church. Please fact check this and you’ll see that I am correct.

That said, I have a real problem with the GLB community using inflammatory language to punish the Church for supporting their principles. How many Hollywood folks spent money, how many GLB folks spent their money? So, it’s okay for “your side” to pay to support their principles but not Church members? That makes no sense.

Now, why is no one in the GLB community supporting the LDS Church on their stance that they would support “civil unions” and equal rights to G-L couples? This position recognizes that the “State” has a right to recognize and collect a fee for providing licenses but it also recognizes that the institution of “marriage” was church centered and each church gets to decide who qualifies for marriage according to their own beliefs. Where’s the hate or prejudice in this stance?

In fairness, you need to provide the full picture if you’re going to start name calling and make certain that the facts you do provide are accurate.

Beyond that, there’s been so much additional discussion that I don’t have time to read that I would just say:

“Hey, can we all get along?” LOL

This position recognizes that the “State” has a right to recognize and collect a fee for providing licenses but it also recognizes that the institution of “marriage” was church centered and each church gets to decide who qualifies for marriage according to their own beliefs. Where’s the hate or prejudice in this stance?

The problem is that while you do get to decide that among your own membership, you are also demanding to decide that on behalf of people who aren’t members of your church.

However, I need to correct a few points. Yes, members did contribute their own funds towards Prop. 8. No, the Church did not contribute a dime to Prop. 8.

I have an actual question here: was this individual giving requested, ordered or suggested by the church, whether at the highest levels or at the local level?

Because it seems clear to me that there was a specific getting together, as many, many LDS givers gave the same exact amount, $1000. Strange that they would all seem to independently arrive at the exact same round figure? No?

So, it’s okay for “your side” to pay to support their principles but not Church members? That makes no sense.

I think it’s wrong to take fundamental rights away from a group. I would never vote to forcibly divorce people who were married in the Mormon church, for instance.

It’s another instance where that respect seems to go only one way.

Shall we vote on which of your rights we get to take away? Fair being fair and all?

The executive producer and lead writer of Big Love are in an openly gay relationship. It doesn’t take much imagination to understand what their not-so-secret agenda is. Maybe they’ll figure out how to work the names of all the contributors to Proposition 8 into the script. (Plural marriage wedding guest list perhaps?) Of course, that won’t have anything to do with Mormons either.

With respect to the LDS Temples and the ceremonies performed in them, there are sufficient references in the Old Testament and LDS scriptures to place them in the mainstream of a very old and well established tradition of teaching humanity about their relationship to God and each other which goes as far back as the oldest cultures (Egypt). The wearing of ceremonial clothing should also not be a surprise, priests in many other religions wear them when they conduct rites on Sundays, at weddings and funerals. They are an outward symbol of an inner commitment to serve God and humanity. In the LDS faith most adults (including women) can and do serve in these “priestly” capacities.

This revelation by Big Love is a cheap shot at the LDS Church and their position on gay marriage. Tom Hanks has already made his disdain clear on prior occasions, both in public and on screen. Nothing new to report there. What is new is the depth of disrespect being expressed.

Let it be known, members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints still do believe and practice polygamy. I should know because I am still a member of this church (maybe not much longer) ….

FACT: A man can and are married/sealed to multiple wives in Temple Sealing Ceremony.

Wow–the Mormon crowd wandering in here to complain clearly has no interest in paying any attention to the arguments of those of us who disagree. Now that’s respectful!

Looks like I was taken aback by the same JBC line Siamang was:

This show offends me as a Mormon and that should be sufficient for someone who is tolerant and respectful of others beliefs.

In a word, no. The fact that you think that (a) a particular idea is “offensive,” or (b) your beliefs deserve to be protected from challenge, intellectual attack, or ridicule, creates no moral duty on our part to refrain from (a) expressing that idea or (b) challenging, intellectually attacking, or ridiculing your beliefs. You don’t like subjecting your religious notions to the scrutiny of the free marketplace of ideas? For the third time: tough. Be an adult, suck it up and stop whining.

Wake up, Mormons on this thread: we do not accept your right to demand that we not “offend” you. You have no right not to be offended. If you keep bizarrely presuming that you do, nothing you say will have any relevance to your opponents on this thread.

As a mormon who has been through the temple several times I have to say that the Endowment Ceremony is the worst freak-show I have ever witnessed! LDS covenant to devote all their time, ressources, money and even their life to the Church. They also covenant to obey and not speak evil of church-leaders. Any disagreement with any part of what the Church leaders say is considered apostasy. Until 1990 the Endowment ceremony included penalties and blood oaths and getting uncomfortable close to the veil worker during the 5 points of fellowship. LDS get a “New name” and learn some secret handshakes like the patriarchal grip – or sure sign of the nail. The handshakes or tokens are believed to make them pass angels in order to get into the celestial kingdom. The handshakes are demonstrated on YouTube and transcripts of the whole endowment ceremony can be found many places on the internet.
Considering that LDS believe that God is the Eternal Father and that the CEO (currently Thomas S. Monson) is a “Gods prophet” it is strange that the Temple Ceremonies needed to change so much! What was once thought essential for exaltation is not seen that way today!

Many elements of the endowment ceremony is copied from masonic rites – but the temple clothes are truly ridicolous. People look like they are attending a KKK rally wearing pizza baker hats and green fig leaves aprons. It is so outlandish and cultish and so far from anything Christ taught that I stopped going. I could simply not take it seriously.

Also consider that family members that are not “Worthy” can not attend the wedding of their sons or daughters. And this is a Chruch that protray themselves as family Church! LOL.

LDS believe that families can be together forever in the celestial kingdom – Another temple ceremony seal children to their parents. Ex-mormons will not be able to be together with their families forever.

Also LDS Claim they do not practise polygamy anymore. That is a blatant lie. A woman sealed to a man in the temple can not remarry if she becomes a vidow or divorces. A man however can remarry another woman in the temple for “eternity” – this makes him sealed to more than one woman. LDS believe that these men will ahve both women as his viwes. So LDS still practise polygamy.

I also notice the LDS doctrine of “Lying for the Lord” in the statement from the church about Big Love: They claim:

“When an independent film company produced a grossly distorted version of the Mountain Meadows Massacre two years ago, the Church ignored it”

That is a blatant lie! The Church actually was forced to apologize for the atrocities members committed when they killed 120-140 innocent and unarmed men and women.

Interesting that the church also mention beycotting AOL and HBO!!! In the aftermath of the passing of prop 8 in CA, some advocated boycotting LDS business who had donated money to the Yes on 8 Campain – The outcry of “We are getting persecuted for our religious beliefs” were hilariously funny. Just look how they act now – they can dish it out but don´t take it!

People has to face that Mormonism is based on the false teachings of false prophet who was a great charasmatic conartist, who had 33 vives – 2 who were 14 making Joseph smith a pedophile. He lied about everything – Ask LDS why he was sent to Carthage Jail? They haven´t got a clue that he and LDS vigilantes destroyed the Navoo expositor, run by the former 1. counselor, who left the Church when Joseph Smith wanted to marry his wife!!!! But like LDS and Church leaders say – the truth is not useful, if it is not faith promoting.

Watching the reaction of a Church and it’s members that believe that all other churches and religions are FALSE and they are the “only true Church” is quite amusing. Let them have their secret KKK pizza baker costume parties, with not so secret handshakes. But stop them from creating a theocracy -their version of “Gods kingdom on Earth” by forcing their “Values” on everybody else like they have done everytime equal rights for blacks, women and now gays and lesbians are discussed. Prop 8 in Ca, the common ground initiative and now trying to prevent civil unions in Illionois, show the true ambition of the MLM Mormon Inc. They don´t care about separation of Church and state – No wonder Mitt Romney never became a serious candidate for US President! If LDS have it their way they will create a theocracy more brutal and murderous than the Islamic Priesthood Regime in Iran. But they forget that freedom of religion is also freedom from religion!

Equality,

Here’s the article my son pointed me to, it seems self-explanatory. If you have articles that the Church put out after this, I’d be happy to take a look at them.

Salt Lake Tribune poll.

Even so, a House committee Wednesday rejected Rep. Jennifer Seelig’s HB160, which would have offered two, unmarried cohabiting adults — including same-sex couples — safeguards of inheritance rights and medical-decision making for one another.

Foes argued gay couples and other unmarried pairs already can secure those rights through wills and other contracts.

HB160 “is unnecessary,” testified Stan Rasmussen, public-affairs manager for the conservative Sutherland Institute. “Further, it creates confusion regarding current law governing inheritance and medical-decision making.”

But Salt Lake City resident Kim Hackford-Peer warned that having all the right documents in place wasn’t enough to guarantee that she could be in the room when her partner, Ruth Hackford-Peer, was having an amniocentesis during her second pregnancy.

“What if the circumstances were different? … What if I was not allowed my last opportunity to talk to her?” Kim Hackford-Peer asked. “When even one person is hurt by a rule or a law that could be changed to make sure that nobody is hurt, I believe, we, as a community, have an obligation to make that change.”

She also noted not everyone can afford to hire an attorney to draft a will or a health-care directive.

Still, the GOP-led House Judiciary Committee voted 9-4 along party lines against the measure.

Despite Wednesday’s defeat, the Common Ground Initiative is far from dead, said Mike Thompson, executive director of Equality Utah, the advocacy group leading the charge. Democratic lawmakers have promised to bring back their bills, with some variations, next year.

And activists scored some mini-victories. All the bills, save for one pulled by its sponsor, at least reached committee hearings.

“The majority of Utahns support these basic protections,” Thompson said. “We are not giving up on these issues. The Common Ground Initiative is not a 2009 legislative agenda.”

Another failed gay-rights bill, HB288, was not included in the initiative. It would have allowed unmarried couples, including gay and lesbian pairs, to adopt and foster children in Utah.

Equality Utah crafted the Common Ground Initiative in response to statements made by the LDS Church after passage of California’s Proposition 8. Even though it supported the ballot measure, which banned same-sex marriage in the Golden State, the church said it “does not object to rights for same-sex couples regarding hospitalization and medical care, fair housing and employment rights, or probate rights, so long as these do not infringe on the integrity of the traditional family or the constitutional rights of churches.”

Despite those comments, the LDS Church did not endorse Equality Utah’s initiative.

So, I’m not misrepresenting anything, just commenting upon what I read and I haven’t seen anything to the contrary but I’m always willing to read more. The remainder of your comments aren’t even really pertinent to our discussion so I’ll just stop here.

Thank you, PK, for the ad-hominem attack and ignorance and intolerance of who I am and what I believe:

There is allot of information about the temple on the internet. The only way it can get there is from someone who has been there and has made a solemn commitment to not reveal it. The information probably cannot be completely trusted since it is revealed by people with very low integrity.

As I recall from my first mormon temple visit, I was issued a verbal contract at the moment of signing. In other words, I knew nothing about what was going to take place other than that it was an ‘essential ordinance’ akin to baptism when covenants would be made with God. What I got instead was naked touching, silly outfits, a movie featuring Satan, and secret passwords and handshakes. Had I been presented with the full facts as to what was about to take place, then I would have ripped up that ‘contract’ on the spot. With friends and parents watching however (they’re always present the first time a new initiate attends the temple), I could hardly bow out just because things started to look a little strange to my 18 yr-old eyes. I trusted my friends and family. I trusted the mormon leaders. I trusted Joseph Smith and THEY all broke their trust and committment to me. A contract cannot be made by coercion and be valid. In my opinion only people of low integrity would participate in such a charade as the temple is.

As for JBC:

If you would like to know about the LDS Church its teachings and faith go to the source. Do you really think that someone who has left the mormon church has a lack of bias. If they did not they would still be members.

If you want unbiased information regarding any product, then you go to a third party who reviews it–not to the salemen or to the factory who have a vested interest in your purchase. Ask a mormon about mormonism only if you want a sales pitch.

The problem is that the information regarding what happens in LDS temples is a closely guarded secret by the LDS and so there is little information in the public forum. Big Love will help provide such and hopefully begin a dialogue about it.

Further, your claim that only unbiased people would remain in the church is absurd and a logical fallacy akin to the No True Scotsman argument, i.e. if someone leaves the mormon church, then they weren’t ‘true’ members. Only those who have the courage to stand up to hypocrisy and lies leave the mormon church. Everyone else swallows Joseph’s Myth hook, line, and sinker. Being brainwashed is worse than being biased.

I know that you will now label everything I said as anti-mormon and that will cease all reasoning and thinking in your head. That’s fine. Just be aware that you’re doing exactly as you’ve been told to. Yours is a Pavlovian response and is understandable. You should, however, learn to examine even those facts and statements that at first seem upsetting or absurd to you. If humans did not do so, then we would still believe that the sun revolved around the earth just as religions of old told us to because the alternative rocked their boat.

You must be able to think outside of the little world that the mormon church has built for you. Forming new neural pathways will be difficult, but you’ll find it to be the most rewarding and empowering thing you’ve ever done.

Dakulis wrote:

That said, I have a real problem with the GLB community using inflammatory language to punish the Church for supporting their principles. How many Hollywood folks spent money, how many GLB folks spent their money? So, it’s okay for “your side” to pay to support their principles but not Church members? That makes no sense.

Let’s deconstruct this to make it simple…..

GLB folks supporting their principles (ie fighting for marriage rights) does absolutely NOTHING to affect the Mormon church.

When Mormons fund efforts to strip GLB people of marriage rights/privileges, this has a real, tangible negative impact on the lives of those GLB people.

Get it now?

The apparent blindness to this blatantly obvious and hypocritical double standard is mind-boggling.

Respect isn’t a one-way-street. If the church continues to show complete and utter disregard for the ’sacred’ things of other people, there’s absolutely no reason for anyone to respect it.

If you want everyone to ‘just get along’, then stop interfering in the lives of other people. So very simple. Do that, and then yes, we most surely COULD all ‘get along’

What about the magic underpants?

so I haven’t read the two hundred some comments, but I as I recall the temple initiation thing is when you start wearing the magic underpants.

I know this because my sister got married in the temple back when she was mormon. I wasn’t able to go to her wedding. I spent it in the church next door with a very bored photographer. My mom got to spend it in the hallway of the temple. I guess since she was the mother of the bride they wanted her to be closer even if she couldn’t actually see it. The only thing objectionable about the ceremony other than excluding many family and friends was that apparently the mormon ceremony doesn’t involve asking the bride if she consents to the marriage. They ask the groom but not the bride. I don’t know if that’s traditional or just something my sister’s “sealer” did.

Also I’ve been in a mormon temple. Before it officially opened they had sort of an open house when they built one in my home town. My sister dragged the whole family to go see it. I guess it was ok because it hadn’t been sanctified or something.

To the person who really, really wants to know about the “Mormon underpants”:These are called ‘temple garments’ and the person wears them after they’ve been through the temple (ergo the name).  I wore those cursed things for about a dozen years until I left the church.  My understanding is that they are to keep you from temptation, as in if you see some hot guy you would like to get it on with…..hey!  nothing doing……you have on these temple garments & were married in the temple.  There are ‘marks’ here & there on the garments to remind you of your sacred voews, blah blah blah.And to the other person asking about Polygamy.  This is supposed to be the way it works in the Celestial Kingdom.  Not only that, but if a couple is sealed in the temple & lives righteous lives (gag) they get to be God & Goddess of their own planet.  I kid you not.  So, since the Mormons had to drop practicing polygamy openly for political reasons, that didn’t change their belief that it’s practed in the celestial kingdom, ergo is really God’s wishes. Yeah, bizarre.

i’ll i’ve got to say is: snap!! after reading all this, i’ve got to put some icy-hot on my eyes to ease the visual chaffing i’m getting! my favorite in reading all of these was the tactic of: if you have a different opinion/faith than me, i’m going to make you look dumb with either direct or indirect personal attacks on you and your opinion. some even offered citations! thus far i feel 0% understanding has been achieved. but then again, that probably wasn’t the goal was it?

I am a practicing member of the LDS faith. I haven’t seen any episodes of Big Love, so I’m not really qualified to comment on whether it’s portrayal of polygamist culture and Mormon culture culture is accurate and realistic. I will say, however, that regardless of whether the portrayal is realistic and fair, I am still disappointed that they would choose to re-enact parts of the temple ceremonies in their show.

My objection arises from the fact that the temple and the ordinances performed therein are considered to by very sacred. We hold the temple in such reverence that we don’t discuss the temple ordinances in detail even among ourselves outside the temple walls.

A sacred experience doesn’t necessarily have to be a religous experience. Think about the experiences that have had a profound or solemn effect on your life. Maybe it was a time when you really communicated heart-to-heart with a dear friend or relative. Maybe it was the birth of your child. Maybe it was a funeral of a loved one. I pity anyone who has never experienced anything sacred.

Now imagine if HBO filmed that profoundly affecting moment of yours, and put it on TV without your consent. How would you feel? If they told you they had researched your sacred experience thoroughly to present it in the most accurate way, would that make it any better? Maybe some people would be all right with that, but I think most of us would be upset.

When I heard Big Love is planning on showing parts of the temple ceremonies, that’s kind of how I felt (although not exactly). My objection isn’t a matter of whether it will be portrayed fairly. It’s a matter of feeling violated because HBO is disrespecting my very sacred experience for the sake of entertainment.

The endowment ceremony is an ordinance (not unlike baptism in some respects) that typically takes about 2 hours, and there is a lot of information/doctrine that is presented during the ceremony. The first few times I attended the temple, I even found it very confusing. It took me several trips to the temple before I started to get a basic understanding of the purpose of the ordinance and how it ties in with other areas of the gospel.

Imagine what it might be like for someone who has never been exposed to Christianity were to witness a baptism. Would they understand the symbolism, meaning or importance of the ordinance? Would they understand why Christians consider baptism to be a spiritual/sacred event? Of course not. It would look bizarre, cultish, even frightening.

For anyone who has not attended a temple ceremony, that is probably the impression you will have while you watch the snippets that are shown on the show. It’s not really possible for HBO to present the ordinances in a context that would make sense to someone who is not well versed in LDS doctrine and beliefs.

That being said, there have been comments made on this forum that imply there are racy/inappropriate things that happen in the temple. That is simply not the case. There is a lot of stuff that happens in the temple that you might find very confusing. However, there is nothing that happens in the temple that would be considered inappropriate/racy/obscene if it were to happen in a crowded public area full of school children.

I feel like I’ve been raped again. You have taken something very very private, very sacred, very personal and riped it away from me and your laying it open to display not for some warped personal kicks but for some warped need for a few extra dollars. Did I wrong you some how someway? If so I appologize, please don’t do this to me not again I don’t know if I can take it again. If it helps, no you don’t learn anything about plural marrage in the Temple, you don’t learn anything about an intergalatic anything, what LDS people do or do not choose to wear is their own business. I don’t make your choice of undergarment public business. You can learn alot of what is said in the Temple by reading your Bible that’s right, not terribly exciting earth shattering stuff. PLEASE LEAVE THE LORD’S TEMPLES ALONE

Regarding comments made about Mormons buying their way into the temple:

Only LDS faithful who hold a temple recommend are permitted to attend the temple. If a member wants to obtain a temple recommend, they have an “interview” with their bishop. The interview consists of a series of questions asked by the bishop and answered by the person who wants to obtain the recommend.

I believe there are currently 21 questions on the interview list. All members everywhere are asked the same questions, and bishops are explicitly instructed to not modify or add to the questions. One of the questions is “are you a full-tithe payer?” This question is not given any more precedence over any of the other questions. I don’t know all of the other questions, but they are along the lines of “are you honest in your dealings with your fellow man?”, “do you sustain Thomas S. Monson as a prophet, seer, and revelator?”, and “do you have a testimony of Jesus Christ?”

The point is that the bishop does not determine whether someone is worthy to attend the temple. The person who is being interviewed makes that determination themself. The bishop never says “I know you’re making $100,000 a year, and from my calculations you’re only paying 2%.”

The interview is an opportunity for the interviewee to assess their own worthiness. Willingness to pay a full 10% tithe is only one of many measures of an individual’s testimony.

Suggesting that people are “buying their salvation” by paying tithing implies that qualifying for a temple recommend is a lot easier than it actually is. Paying a full tithe is only one requirement among many for a faithful LDS adherent.

Beetle:

This all just goes to demonstrate that, as a whole, Friendly Atheists are more courteous net citizens than the Mormons trolling here.

You have a point–but I don’t think I would call what our Mormon guests are doing here trolling. It’s more like filibustering–they’re trying to squeeze out any dissent from their petulant whining by mere repetition and strength-in-numbers. In a sense, their tactic is the opposite of trolling: rather than trying to provoke a reaction, they’re trying to bury the reaction (and then pretend it doesn’t exist).

Honestly, it seems to me that what they’re doing is measurably worse than trolling. At least trolls recognize that there are two (or more) sides to an issue.

Dakulis said:

Scott, Prop. 8 was “mean spirited” in your mind but not mine.

So, Dakulis, by the same token, you should be ‘ok’ if the producers of ‘Big Love’ said to you:

‘our decision to show temple services is “mean spirited” in your mind but not ours‘

and you should be ‘ok’ if a homosexual person said to you:

‘our decision to protest and boycott all things Mormon is “mean spirited” in your mind but not ours’

right?

will ANY Mormon posting in this thread have the integrity to ‘explain’ why their active bigotry (which has real world negative consequences for people who have nothing to do with their church) should be ‘respected’, while reactions against their bigotry are apparently NOT worth respecting?

anyone??

I’m still waiting for somebody to respond to the question about why, if a non-Mormon finds something about Mormonism offensive, members of that religion are not obligated to stop practising it out of “respect”. (And incidentally, as a feminist and a humanist, I can find plenty to be offended by.)

It is interesting reading about all the excitement and mystery about the upcoming Big Love episode. I guess people will be thinking: “Once and for all, we’re finally going to see the truth about all this Mormon stuff.” Well, you are wrong.
What about the secret ceremonies within the Catholic Church? I don’t knock the Catholics?
What about the secret ceremonies within the myriad Native American tribes? I don’t knock the Natives.
There’s so much more out there that is “secret” or “sacred” that people haven’t a clue about.
In some way, all this reminds me of Monty Python in search of the Holy Grail!

I think with all this uproar behind the episode, people who actually watch it will maintain that it isn’t anything different than watching a scene in a catholic confessional (which I’ve scene many times in movies and tv), or a Jewish temple, a Christian baptizing ceremony etc etc. Are these not as sacred????

Scenes like these DO NOT denounce religion, whatsoever, but rather celebrate the practices. Come Monday, our practices will not be any less sacred than they were Sunday when the episode is supposed to air. I guess I just take it for what it is. Here are the full statements from HBO and the producers:

HBO Statement:

“We know that the writers/producers of the series have gone to great lengths to be respectful and accurate in portraying the endowment ceremony. That ceremony is very much an important part of this year’s storyline. Obviously, it was not our intention to do anything disrespectful to the church but to those who may be offended, we offer our sincere apology. It should also be noted that throughout the series’ three-year run, the writer/producers have made abundantly clear the distinction between the LDS church and those extreme fringe groups who practice polygamy. ”

Statement from Mark V Olsen and Will Scheffer :

“In approaching the dramatization of the endowment ceremony, we knew we had a responsibility to be completely accurate and to show the ceremony in the proper context and with respect. We therefore took great pains to depict the ceremony with the dignity and reverence it is due. This approach is entirely evident in the scene portrayed in this episode and certainly reflected in Jeanne Tripplehorn’s beautiful and moving performance as she faces losing the Church she loved so much. In order to assure the accuracy of the ceremony, it was thoroughly vetted by an adviser who is familiar with temple practices and rituals. This consultant was actually on the set throughout the filming of the scenes to make sure every detail was correct.”

Understanding:

Just remember that some people want to keep things personal, private, sacred or secret and a respect for people would be nice as long as that does not hurt anyone or endanger others.

All good and well and agreeable, but the secret temple rituals do hurt people. New members to the church are told next to nothing about what goes on in the temple. They’re only told that it’s a neccessity and that’s it’s “special.” Then when they do go, they often feel shocked, betrayed, and the victim of a scam. Those people have been hurt by all of the secrecy. Disclosure and discussion would alleviate many of those problems. It is actually in the church’s best interest for the public to be able to learn as much as possible about what being a member fully involves.

Besides, there are hundreds of thousands of exmormons who do know exactly what goes on in the temple, but that, I would think, does not lessen the sacredness of the event for you personally. Something can be public knowledge and still be privately sacred.

Then when they do go, they often feel shocked, betrayed, and the victim of a scam

In my opinion this would only occur if you do not properly prepare yourself. There are temple prep classes you can attend prior to going. Also if you truly have a testimony of the restored church than anything that does not involve the violation of others should be of shock. Nothing we do is extreme, no one is hurt, no animals are involved, there is no mention of anyone other the Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ as deity.
Unfortunately in a society the really values nothing anymore, I am not surprised that so few people have any understanding of things being sacred. Family, Sex, Children, Human life are near worthless to society anymore. As a convert of 10 years this is a sad day for me, but we will push forward, this will simply act as another opportunity to speak about what we believe, just as ‘Big Love’ and ‘South Park’ have done in the past. I just wish that this time the price was not so high.

It’s that the temple is a place where only people who are really serious about being all those things I listed above go to make promises to God. I know that promises don’t mean much anymore. Every idiot in the world stands up and says “I do” in any conventional wedding ritual but he really means, yeah – until I don’t feel like it, or until I don’t get what I want, or until it gets boring. The Mormon people feel like the promises they make to God – about those things I listed above, remember – that they are REAL promises. And it’s better you don’t make them at all than to make them and lie to God about it, or turn out to be too shallow or selfish or whatever to keep them.

You want to know how long my sister’s special “sealed for all eternity” marriage lasted? Ten months. They didn’t even make it a full fucking year. I on the other hand, have made no promises in front of gods or men, and yet have made a happy home with my beloved for five years. So forgive me for not taking your REAL promises seriously when I have managed to surpass them simply by living my life.

The concept of secrecy from an organization that has ex-members is interesting. Does an organization have the right to retain secrets from non-members?

The question is: Do individuals own their own experiences involving the organization or does the organization? Some companies have non-compete contracts with outgoing employees so that those employees can’t take their special skills and experience from that one company and us it to benefit a competitor.
Maybe LDS should get their members’ commitment to secrecy in writing before allowing them into the temple?

But, like someone mentioned above, secrets just do more to sew distrust than anything else.

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, let me answer some of your questions.
First off, what we do in the temple is not secret, but sacred. They are things that are not taught until you have an understanding of the basic principles of the church. Very much like other religions, Judaism & Catholicism. You must learn to walk before you run. There is nothing that is done that ANYONE would be ashamed of, but if you don’t understand the church or our basic principles than you will be confused. That is why it is done with in the temple and out of the public eye.
We are not offended because we think they are showing anything that we would be ashamed of, we are offended because they are taking something that is so highly respected and sacred to us and disprespectfully putting it out there to make money. Someone would say it is like someone taking their diary and their most treasured memories and thoughts and reading them out loud on TV.
Also you said the following “but I imagine a lot of Mormons don’t like it because it portrays an aspect of Mormonism (polygamy) that many of them don’t subscribe to. ”
It is not an aspect of Mormonism, Polygamy has been against the rules of the church since 1890, any members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints who practice this are excommunicated. It is members of the FLDS church that practice polygamy, and they don’t practice these temple ceremonies. So by doing this show they have completed blurred the lines of 2 very different religions. SOme think they are not different, but I tell you they are as different as the Catholic church and the Methodist church.
I am saddened at the fact that HBO thinks they have a right to show this, and that even after they have recieved millions of complaints and pleas to stop it that they would continue on. I feel sorry for them that they have no respect for religions and those that practice them.

This is not being done with the intent to educate people about what goes on in our Temples, it is a direct attack on the Mormon Community. This show is ridiculous, inaccurate and offensive. Mormons contribute so much to society with charity and volunteer service and all the general public wants to do is ridicule us. We are by no means perfect, but we do try to teach and practice good moral values…. something that the world in general is lacking right now. I think its interesting how people like the makers of big love are trying to act like heros that are exposing some criminal coverup, but the truth is … if they were alive at the time of Jesus Christ, they would be the ones crucifying him.

In my opinion this would only occur if you do not properly prepare yourself. There are temple prep classes you can attend prior to going.

Oh come on lane, any mormon and ex-mormon who has gone through the temple knows that the ‘temple preparation’ classes don’t tell you anything about what actually goes on in the temple. There is no way on earth that someone going through the temple for the first time is prepared for the ceremony’s weirdness, unless they’ve gotten information on it from somewhere else.

Everyone is initially taken aback by the experience. Don’t kid yourself. It’s a disturbing state of affairs.

@Iane

Also if you truly have a testimony of the restored church than anything that does not involve the violation of others should be of shock. Nothing we do is extreme, no one is hurt, no animals are involved, there is no mention of anyone other the Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ as deity.

There are other things people can find shocking – like how childish and/or just plain lame is some big secret thing that supposed to be sacred. That was how Stetson Kennedy helped break the power of the KKK, by making their secrets known. It wasn’t because outsiders made fun of them, it was because after having it out in the open, lots of the KKK members took a look at themselves and realized how stupid their secret society was. It demoralized from within, legitimately.

Shine the light, HBO!