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	<title>Comments on: Here We Go Again</title>
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	<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/11/22/here-we-go-again/</link>
	<description>Atheism with Positivity</description>
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		<item>
		<title>By: TXatheist</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/11/22/here-we-go-again/comment-page-1/#comment-247691</link>
		<dc:creator>TXatheist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 13:56:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=5946#comment-247691</guid>
		<description>Thanks Jonsi and Richard.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Jonsi and Richard.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Wade</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/11/22/here-we-go-again/comment-page-1/#comment-247552</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 00:37:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=5946#comment-247552</guid>
		<description>Whoops, I spoke five minutes too soon.  The City of Rancho Cucamonga just responded to my email:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Re: What were you thinking?&lt;/strong&gt;
	
Thank you so much for your inquiry regarding the &quot;No Religion&quot; billboard 
and the media&#039;s coverage regarding its removal.  I am responding back to 
your inquiry to clear up any misunderstandings and to make it clear that 
the City of Rancho Cucamonga gave NO direction in the removal of that 
billboard message, or any billboard message.  In fact, the City does not 
have any authority over the content of a billboard and the City does not 
approve what is put up on a billboard and is not authorized to remove 
billboard advertisements.  The City of Rancho Cucamonga has NO role in 
controlling billboard content. 
 
The advertisement that you refer to could go up or down or changed 
anyway the billboard company wishes to at any time like any other 
billboard without any approval or permit by the City.  These are purely 
private sector business decisions with no input by the City. 
 
 
 
For those who want to know why the billboard company put up a particular 
advertisement, it would be appropriate to contact the billboard company. 
Conversely, if one has questions regarding the removal of a particular 
advertisement, the billboard company should be contacted.  The City is 
not responsible for any business decisions made by any billboard 
company.  
 
 
 
Again, I want to thank you for your email.  The City of Rancho Cucamonga 
appreciates your thoughts and concerns and I sincerely hope that this 
response has answered your concerns.  
 
Fabian A. Villenas 
Principal Management Analyst 
City Manager&#039;s Office 
City of Rancho Cucamonga 
(909) 477-2700, extension 2006 
fabian.villenas@cityofrc.us 
&lt;/blockquote&gt; 

So they will try to deny the various sources that have quoted Linda Daniels having said that she contacted the ad company and asked about taking the billboard down.  General Outdoor Advertising, not wanting to take the rap all by themselves will probably say they were pressured by the City, even if it wasn&#039;t much pressure.

It doesn&#039;t seem to occur to anyone to simply put the billboard back up for the agreed amount of time and let the City respond to those who complain by educating them about freedom of speech.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whoops, I spoke five minutes too soon.  The City of Rancho Cucamonga just responded to my email:</p>
<blockquote><p><strong>Re: What were you thinking?</strong></p>
<p>Thank you so much for your inquiry regarding the &#8220;No Religion&#8221; billboard<br />
and the media&#8217;s coverage regarding its removal.  I am responding back to<br />
your inquiry to clear up any misunderstandings and to make it clear that<br />
the City of Rancho Cucamonga gave NO direction in the removal of that<br />
billboard message, or any billboard message.  In fact, the City does not<br />
have any authority over the content of a billboard and the City does not<br />
approve what is put up on a billboard and is not authorized to remove<br />
billboard advertisements.  The City of Rancho Cucamonga has NO role in<br />
controlling billboard content. </p>
<p>The advertisement that you refer to could go up or down or changed<br />
anyway the billboard company wishes to at any time like any other<br />
billboard without any approval or permit by the City.  These are purely<br />
private sector business decisions with no input by the City. </p>
<p>For those who want to know why the billboard company put up a particular<br />
advertisement, it would be appropriate to contact the billboard company.<br />
Conversely, if one has questions regarding the removal of a particular<br />
advertisement, the billboard company should be contacted.  The City is<br />
not responsible for any business decisions made by any billboard<br />
company.  </p>
<p>Again, I want to thank you for your email.  The City of Rancho Cucamonga<br />
appreciates your thoughts and concerns and I sincerely hope that this<br />
response has answered your concerns.  </p>
<p>Fabian A. Villenas<br />
Principal Management Analyst<br />
City Manager&#8217;s Office<br />
City of Rancho Cucamonga<br />
(909) 477-2700, extension 2006<br />
<a href="mailto:fabian.villenas@cityofrc.us">fabian.villenas@cityofrc.us</a>
</p></blockquote>
<p>So they will try to deny the various sources that have quoted Linda Daniels having said that she contacted the ad company and asked about taking the billboard down.  General Outdoor Advertising, not wanting to take the rap all by themselves will probably say they were pressured by the City, even if it wasn&#8217;t much pressure.</p>
<p>It doesn&#8217;t seem to occur to anyone to simply put the billboard back up for the agreed amount of time and let the City respond to those who complain by educating them about freedom of speech.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Wade</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/11/22/here-we-go-again/comment-page-1/#comment-247536</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 23:44:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=5946#comment-247536</guid>
		<description>Jonsi, I&#039;m sorry if I sounded like I was jumping down your throat. Like TXatheist said, I appreciate your getting that information. I was reacting to what clearly was a lie told to you by the City.

How was it you got a response? They haven&#039;t answered &lt;em&gt;my&lt;/em&gt; email. Gee, I wonder why?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jonsi, I&#8217;m sorry if I sounded like I was jumping down your throat. Like TXatheist said, I appreciate your getting that information. I was reacting to what clearly was a lie told to you by the City.</p>
<p>How was it you got a response? They haven&#8217;t answered <em>my</em> email. Gee, I wonder why?</p>
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		<title>By: Jonsi</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/11/22/here-we-go-again/comment-page-1/#comment-247532</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonsi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 23:36:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=5946#comment-247532</guid>
		<description>Well, then I stand corrected again.  I was merely repeating the response from the City that I received.  In my email, I prefaced saying &quot;allegedly you received complaints and you notified the billboard company and then they removed it, and if that is not true, then I please disregard this complaint, but otherwise...&quot;

They responded saying they never did or said anything to the company, that the company acted on its own accord.  I guess they are lying.  Certainly the redevelopment director exerting influence is a problem, and if proven true, I hope they are sued.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, then I stand corrected again.  I was merely repeating the response from the City that I received.  In my email, I prefaced saying &#8220;allegedly you received complaints and you notified the billboard company and then they removed it, and if that is not true, then I please disregard this complaint, but otherwise&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>They responded saying they never did or said anything to the company, that the company acted on its own accord.  I guess they are lying.  Certainly the redevelopment director exerting influence is a problem, and if proven true, I hope they are sued.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Wade</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/11/22/here-we-go-again/comment-page-1/#comment-247529</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 23:22:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=5946#comment-247529</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Apparently, the city did not request the advertising company, Great Outdoors Advertising, to take down the billboard.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

FFrF made the agreement with General Outdoor Advertizing, the papers were signed, the fee was paid, and the billboard was put up.  Then the City got the alleged 90 complaints and Redevelopment Director Linda Daniels publicly admitted, &quot;We contacted the sign company and asked if there was a way to get it removed.&quot;

That is clearly a case of the City improperly intervening to use its influence over a private company to suppress the First Amendment rights of a private group after a completely legal transaction was completed.  It was none of the City&#039;s business and using their ability to pressure, whether implicitly or explicitly, was out of line. While these cowards scramble for cover and point their fingers at each other, the fact will remain that both the ad company and the City are liable.

Happy hunting!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Apparently, the city did not request the advertising company, Great Outdoors Advertising, to take down the billboard.</p></blockquote>
<p>FFrF made the agreement with General Outdoor Advertizing, the papers were signed, the fee was paid, and the billboard was put up.  Then the City got the alleged 90 complaints and Redevelopment Director Linda Daniels publicly admitted, &#8220;We contacted the sign company and asked if there was a way to get it removed.&#8221;</p>
<p>That is clearly a case of the City improperly intervening to use its influence over a private company to suppress the First Amendment rights of a private group after a completely legal transaction was completed.  It was none of the City&#8217;s business and using their ability to pressure, whether implicitly or explicitly, was out of line. While these cowards scramble for cover and point their fingers at each other, the fact will remain that both the ad company and the City are liable.</p>
<p>Happy hunting!</p>
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		<title>By: Magdalena</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/11/22/here-we-go-again/comment-page-1/#comment-247513</link>
		<dc:creator>Magdalena</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 21:54:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=5946#comment-247513</guid>
		<description>A similar situation happened in Oklahoma City, regarding the removal of gay pride banners by the city council. Oklahoma=homophobic. The city was sued and was found guilty of wrongdoing. I&#039;m trying to remember all the details, as there was mention of financial restitution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A similar situation happened in Oklahoma City, regarding the removal of gay pride banners by the city council. Oklahoma=homophobic. The city was sued and was found guilty of wrongdoing. I&#8217;m trying to remember all the details, as there was mention of financial restitution.</p>
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		<title>By: TXatheist</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/11/22/here-we-go-again/comment-page-1/#comment-247508</link>
		<dc:creator>TXatheist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 21:23:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=5946#comment-247508</guid>
		<description>Jonsi, appreciate you looking into this...  According to Redevelopment Director Linda Daniels, City Hall had received 90 calls of complaint since Wednesday. 

    “We contacted the sign company and asked if there was a way to get it removed,” Daniels said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jonsi, appreciate you looking into this&#8230;  According to Redevelopment Director Linda Daniels, City Hall had received 90 calls of complaint since Wednesday. </p>
<p>    “We contacted the sign company and asked if there was a way to get it removed,” Daniels said.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonsi</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/11/22/here-we-go-again/comment-page-1/#comment-247504</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonsi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 20:53:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=5946#comment-247504</guid>
		<description>I received a response from Rancho Cucamonga.  Apparently, the city did not request the advertising company, Great Outdoors Advertising, to take down the billboard.  If true, this is not a church and state issue, it is a private issue regarding whether or not the advertising company breached contract.  The city claims it was not at all involved with the removal of the billboard.  Therefore any complaints should be directed at the advertising company.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I received a response from Rancho Cucamonga.  Apparently, the city did not request the advertising company, Great Outdoors Advertising, to take down the billboard.  If true, this is not a church and state issue, it is a private issue regarding whether or not the advertising company breached contract.  The city claims it was not at all involved with the removal of the billboard.  Therefore any complaints should be directed at the advertising company.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Buffy</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/11/22/here-we-go-again/comment-page-1/#comment-247409</link>
		<dc:creator>Buffy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 08:52:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=5946#comment-247409</guid>
		<description>Funny how those who are constantly crying about religious intolerance are the first to practic it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny how those who are constantly crying about religious intolerance are the first to practic it.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Wade</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/11/22/here-we-go-again/comment-page-1/#comment-247303</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Nov 2008 23:49:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=5946#comment-247303</guid>
		<description>Linda, you asked:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Apathy turns into empathy and compassion only through experience. To expect more is unrealistic, no?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Yes, that change can happen if the experience is the personal loss of the freedom.  Fortunately, that experience is rare in this country.  Unfortunately, people take it for granted because it is mainly rare among those in the majority opinion.  The First Amendment was created to protect minority views; majority views don&#039;t need protection.  

Very few people are mature enough to be able to adopt the famous maxim, &lt;em&gt;&quot;I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it,&quot;&lt;/em&gt; attributed to, but never actually said by Voltaire.

However, I don&#039;t think it is entirely unrealistic to expect that kind of integrity from people who have never been squelched. The idea can be taught.  I was taught it in school, ordinary public school, and it stuck.  Long before I ever personally experienced being censored, I was able to have empathy and compassion for the minority view, and to see that their freedom of speech is not just equal to, but &lt;em&gt;identical with&lt;/em&gt; mine.  Maybe in the ensuing years that emphasis on the inclusion of all speech has been lost from our education system.  Somehow, we must re-instill this ideal into the public mentality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Linda, you asked:</p>
<blockquote><p>Apathy turns into empathy and compassion only through experience. To expect more is unrealistic, no?</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes, that change can happen if the experience is the personal loss of the freedom.  Fortunately, that experience is rare in this country.  Unfortunately, people take it for granted because it is mainly rare among those in the majority opinion.  The First Amendment was created to protect minority views; majority views don&#8217;t need protection.  </p>
<p>Very few people are mature enough to be able to adopt the famous maxim, <em>&#8220;I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it,&#8221;</em> attributed to, but never actually said by Voltaire.</p>
<p>However, I don&#8217;t think it is entirely unrealistic to expect that kind of integrity from people who have never been squelched. The idea can be taught.  I was taught it in school, ordinary public school, and it stuck.  Long before I ever personally experienced being censored, I was able to have empathy and compassion for the minority view, and to see that their freedom of speech is not just equal to, but <em>identical with</em> mine.  Maybe in the ensuing years that emphasis on the inclusion of all speech has been lost from our education system.  Somehow, we must re-instill this ideal into the public mentality.</p>
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