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	<title>Comments on: They&#8217;re Coming to Your Town</title>
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	<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/11/19/theyre-coming-to-your-town/</link>
	<description>Atheism with Positivity</description>
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		<title>By: Sanguinity</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/11/19/theyre-coming-to-your-town/comment-page-1/#comment-246369</link>
		<dc:creator>Sanguinity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 06:53:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=5856#comment-246369</guid>
		<description>Noodleguy:

1. Dude. You&#039;ve got the correlation =/= causation problem going on there yourself. Just because the numbers match doesn&#039;t mean you&#039;ve explained the causation of anything.

2. That 70% figure was based on a sample size of &lt;em&gt;10 people.&lt;/em&gt; Which, when combined with the &quot;clumpiness&quot; of exit polling, means that you have no idea what the real incidence of Yes votes among African-Americans was. And if you don&#039;t know what that number actually was, then you can&#039;t meaningfully assert that your calculations equal it.

3. You&#039;re assuming that &quot;Christianity&quot; is a uniform property that behaves the same way in all communities. We&#039;ve got no evidence for that; in fact, given how segregated Christian churches tend to be (and, also, how some denominations are extremely unlikely to cross color lines), that&#039;s a very risky hypothesis to make.

In short, I don&#039;t think you&#039;ve demonstrated anything.

Generally speaking, I prefer to get my information about why communities of color vote on LGBT issues as they do from queers of color and allies of color -- people who are actually &lt;i&gt;members&lt;/i&gt; of those communities; who have actually been on the ground, having the conversations and doing the work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Noodleguy:</p>
<p>1. Dude. You&#8217;ve got the correlation =/= causation problem going on there yourself. Just because the numbers match doesn&#8217;t mean you&#8217;ve explained the causation of anything.</p>
<p>2. That 70% figure was based on a sample size of <em>10 people.</em> Which, when combined with the &#8220;clumpiness&#8221; of exit polling, means that you have no idea what the real incidence of Yes votes among African-Americans was. And if you don&#8217;t know what that number actually was, then you can&#8217;t meaningfully assert that your calculations equal it.</p>
<p>3. You&#8217;re assuming that &#8220;Christianity&#8221; is a uniform property that behaves the same way in all communities. We&#8217;ve got no evidence for that; in fact, given how segregated Christian churches tend to be (and, also, how some denominations are extremely unlikely to cross color lines), that&#8217;s a very risky hypothesis to make.</p>
<p>In short, I don&#8217;t think you&#8217;ve demonstrated anything.</p>
<p>Generally speaking, I prefer to get my information about why communities of color vote on LGBT issues as they do from queers of color and allies of color &#8212; people who are actually <i>members</i> of those communities; who have actually been on the ground, having the conversations and doing the work.</p>
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		<title>By: justin jm</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/11/19/theyre-coming-to-your-town/comment-page-1/#comment-246261</link>
		<dc:creator>justin jm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 23:55:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=5856#comment-246261</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;1) 75% of Christians support Prop 8, and only 10% of those with no religious affiliation were against it&lt;/blockquote&gt;

You mean that only 10% of Christians were against it, right? IIRC, about 85% of those with no church attendance voted against Prop 8.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>1) 75% of Christians support Prop 8, and only 10% of those with no religious affiliation were against it</p></blockquote>
<p>You mean that only 10% of Christians were against it, right? IIRC, about 85% of those with no church attendance voted against Prop 8.</p>
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		<title>By: noodleguy</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/11/19/theyre-coming-to-your-town/comment-page-1/#comment-246235</link>
		<dc:creator>noodleguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 22:09:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=5856#comment-246235</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I don’t get why generally speaking minorities support Prop 8&lt;/blockquote&gt;
It&#039;s actually a very simple question, despite the complex responses that people offer to explain it.

1) 75% of Christians support Prop 8, and only 10% of those with no religious affiliation were against it
2) 90% of blacks are Christian
3) 70% of blacks support Prop 8.

Those statistics actually add up to 68%, not 70%, but it is very close, and besides there is margin of error. Maybe by some small percentage blacks are against gay marriages more often, but not NEARLY enough that it could have changed the election.
Think, if 2% of blacks were against gay marriage just because of some inherent hatred for gays in the black community (!?) that would not even be close to changing the tide of the election.

It has nothing to do with their being minorities, it has to do with their being Christians. Frankly the whole &quot;Blacks hate gays&quot; myth is absurd, it should be &quot;Christians hate gays&quot; thank you very much. Correlation does not equal causation.

@Brooks: You&#039;re awesome :P</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I don’t get why generally speaking minorities support Prop 8</p></blockquote>
<p>It&#8217;s actually a very simple question, despite the complex responses that people offer to explain it.</p>
<p>1) 75% of Christians support Prop 8, and only 10% of those with no religious affiliation were against it<br />
2) 90% of blacks are Christian<br />
3) 70% of blacks support Prop 8.</p>
<p>Those statistics actually add up to 68%, not 70%, but it is very close, and besides there is margin of error. Maybe by some small percentage blacks are against gay marriages more often, but not NEARLY enough that it could have changed the election.<br />
Think, if 2% of blacks were against gay marriage just because of some inherent hatred for gays in the black community (!?) that would not even be close to changing the tide of the election.</p>
<p>It has nothing to do with their being minorities, it has to do with their being Christians. Frankly the whole &#8220;Blacks hate gays&#8221; myth is absurd, it should be &#8220;Christians hate gays&#8221; thank you very much. Correlation does not equal causation.</p>
<p>@Brooks: You&#8217;re awesome <img src='http://friendlyatheist.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':P' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Sanguinity</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/11/19/theyre-coming-to-your-town/comment-page-1/#comment-246233</link>
		<dc:creator>Sanguinity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 22:08:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=5856#comment-246233</guid>
		<description>Brooks: I like! :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brooks: I like! <img src='http://friendlyatheist.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Brooks</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/11/19/theyre-coming-to-your-town/comment-page-1/#comment-246226</link>
		<dc:creator>Brooks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 21:56:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=5856#comment-246226</guid>
		<description>If we really want to get silly with changing the words around, how about we do this? &quot;Residents of the small Arkansas town of Eureka Springs noticed the fundamentalist Christian community was growing. But they felt no threat. They went about their business as usual. Then, one day, they woke up to discover that their beloved Eureka Springs, a community which was known far and wide as a center for the wide variety of entertainment — had changed. The City Council had been taken over by a small group of fundamentalist Christian activists.

The Eureka Springs they knew is gone. It is now a national hub for fundamentalist Christians. Eureka Springs is becoming the Bible Belt of Arkansas. The story of how this happened is told in the new AFA DVD “They’re Coming To Your Town.”

…

AFA’s “They’re Coming To Your Town” documents the story of how and why this happened. And how fundamentalist Christian activists plan to do the same in other towns.&quot;  

I think this is much more accurate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If we really want to get silly with changing the words around, how about we do this? &#8220;Residents of the small Arkansas town of Eureka Springs noticed the fundamentalist Christian community was growing. But they felt no threat. They went about their business as usual. Then, one day, they woke up to discover that their beloved Eureka Springs, a community which was known far and wide as a center for the wide variety of entertainment — had changed. The City Council had been taken over by a small group of fundamentalist Christian activists.</p>
<p>The Eureka Springs they knew is gone. It is now a national hub for fundamentalist Christians. Eureka Springs is becoming the Bible Belt of Arkansas. The story of how this happened is told in the new AFA DVD “They’re Coming To Your Town.”</p>
<p>…</p>
<p>AFA’s “They’re Coming To Your Town” documents the story of how and why this happened. And how fundamentalist Christian activists plan to do the same in other towns.&#8221;  </p>
<p>I think this is much more accurate.</p>
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		<title>By: Sanguinity</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/11/19/theyre-coming-to-your-town/comment-page-1/#comment-246207</link>
		<dc:creator>Sanguinity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 20:56:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=5856#comment-246207</guid>
		<description>Rachel:
&lt;blockquote&gt;I don’t get why generally speaking minorities support Prop 8, it makes absolutely no sense.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Well, one of the issues are the abundant, facile equivalencies proposed by white queers (which I know, Hemant, you are neither) between GLBT discrimination and racial discrimination. The two are actually kinda different, and even if they &lt;i&gt;weren&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; different, those analogies are appropriative.

Slit does a nice job expanding on what the problem with those analogies are in &lt;a href=&quot;http://slit.livejournal.com/416627.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;An Open Letter to White Activists&lt;/a&gt;. So does Nojojo in &lt;a href=&quot;http://theangryblackwoman.com/2008/11/08/if-ab-and-bc-but-c-is-not-equal-to-a-then-wtf/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;If A=B and B=C but C is not equal to A, then… WTF?&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;I’m not sure if history is being taught properly...&lt;/blockquote&gt;

On average, members of racial minorities have a better knowledge of the history of discrimination in the U.S. than white people do, even better than whites who are reasonably well educated. The ugly fact is that the mainstream culture, including the schools, just don&#039;t tend to provide very good education on racial discrimination or history. 

So, if you&#039;re white and confused about the actions of members of a racial minority, &quot;Don&#039;t they understand history?&quot; isn&#039;t usually a good first question. &quot;Is there some relevant bit of history that I don&#039;t know yet?&quot; is probably a better one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rachel:</p>
<blockquote><p>I don’t get why generally speaking minorities support Prop 8, it makes absolutely no sense.</p></blockquote>
<p>Well, one of the issues are the abundant, facile equivalencies proposed by white queers (which I know, Hemant, you are neither) between GLBT discrimination and racial discrimination. The two are actually kinda different, and even if they <i>weren&#8217;t</i> different, those analogies are appropriative.</p>
<p>Slit does a nice job expanding on what the problem with those analogies are in <a href="http://slit.livejournal.com/416627.html" rel="nofollow">An Open Letter to White Activists</a>. So does Nojojo in <a href="http://theangryblackwoman.com/2008/11/08/if-ab-and-bc-but-c-is-not-equal-to-a-then-wtf/" rel="nofollow">If A=B and B=C but C is not equal to A, then… WTF?</a></p>
<blockquote><p>I’m not sure if history is being taught properly&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<p>On average, members of racial minorities have a better knowledge of the history of discrimination in the U.S. than white people do, even better than whites who are reasonably well educated. The ugly fact is that the mainstream culture, including the schools, just don&#8217;t tend to provide very good education on racial discrimination or history. </p>
<p>So, if you&#8217;re white and confused about the actions of members of a racial minority, &#8220;Don&#8217;t they understand history?&#8221; isn&#8217;t usually a good first question. &#8220;Is there some relevant bit of history that I don&#8217;t know yet?&#8221; is probably a better one.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Wade</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/11/19/theyre-coming-to-your-town/comment-page-1/#comment-246198</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 20:26:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=5856#comment-246198</guid>
		<description>Yet another sub species of Christianity becoming extremely specialized by focusing on one issue to the exclusion of their original precepts. They should call themselves the &quot;First Church of the Holy Gay Haters of Arkansas.&quot;

In biology, specialization precedes extinction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yet another sub species of Christianity becoming extremely specialized by focusing on one issue to the exclusion of their original precepts. They should call themselves the &#8220;First Church of the Holy Gay Haters of Arkansas.&#8221;</p>
<p>In biology, specialization precedes extinction.</p>
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		<title>By: Jennifer Gray</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/11/19/theyre-coming-to-your-town/comment-page-1/#comment-246196</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer Gray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 20:24:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=5856#comment-246196</guid>
		<description>The problem is that fundies don&#039;t see homosexuality like they see race. They see homosexuality as a sin and a choice. I grew up in a fundie community in Kentucky, and although I moved to a more progressive city in Ohio with my family years ago, they still hold this same view. To them, being gay is just like lying, stealing, fornication, adultry, doing drugs, etc. Replace &quot;homosexual&quot; with &quot;thieves&quot; or &quot;drug dealers&quot; instead of &quot;black&quot; and you&#039;ll see why they&#039;re afraid. Until that view changes, we will continue to see stuff like this from fundie groups like the AFA.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem is that fundies don&#8217;t see homosexuality like they see race. They see homosexuality as a sin and a choice. I grew up in a fundie community in Kentucky, and although I moved to a more progressive city in Ohio with my family years ago, they still hold this same view. To them, being gay is just like lying, stealing, fornication, adultry, doing drugs, etc. Replace &#8220;homosexual&#8221; with &#8220;thieves&#8221; or &#8220;drug dealers&#8221; instead of &#8220;black&#8221; and you&#8217;ll see why they&#8217;re afraid. Until that view changes, we will continue to see stuff like this from fundie groups like the AFA.</p>
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		<title>By: JS</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/11/19/theyre-coming-to-your-town/comment-page-1/#comment-246192</link>
		<dc:creator>JS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 19:36:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=5856#comment-246192</guid>
		<description>This is absolutely terrifying, and exactly the kind of thing that makes me feel incredibly angry. But also a little helpless and frustrated.  I&#039;m just not sure what I can do to help end religious bigotry, other than announce proudly that I am an atheist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is absolutely terrifying, and exactly the kind of thing that makes me feel incredibly angry. But also a little helpless and frustrated.  I&#8217;m just not sure what I can do to help end religious bigotry, other than announce proudly that I am an atheist.</p>
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		<title>By: Scotty B</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/11/19/theyre-coming-to-your-town/comment-page-1/#comment-246186</link>
		<dc:creator>Scotty B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 18:58:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/?p=5856#comment-246186</guid>
		<description>Funny how in the AFA store, everything is listed with a &quot;suggested donation&quot; price, yet there is no way to adjust the amount of the &quot;donation&quot; (unless you want to contribute additional funds, of course).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny how in the AFA store, everything is listed with a &#8220;suggested donation&#8221; price, yet there is no way to adjust the amount of the &#8220;donation&#8221; (unless you want to contribute additional funds, of course).</p>
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