Books I would recommend:

History and Theology of New Testament Writings by Udo Schnelle*
The Test of the New Testament; its Transmission, Corruption and Restoration by B. Metzger*
The Canon of the New Testament by B. Metzger*
Social-Science Commentary on the New Testament by Malina and Rohrbaugh*
Jesus and the Eyewitnesses by Richard Baukham* (tacitly recommended)

Who wrote the Bible? by Friedman
A History of God by Karen Armstrong (the intro is priceless)*
Finding Darwin’s God by Ken Miller

Losing Faith in Faith by Dan Barker**
Why I became an atheist by John Loftus**

*written by Christians, but heavy reading.
**deconvert stories

When discussing with Christians, I find myself referring to the first five books more than any other. The middle set give interesting perspectives on things you may not have thought about. The last two are more descriptive of what it means to deconvert.

I’d be interested in doing some reading because I would like to get a different perspective than how I grew up. I accepted Christ when I was 5 years old and grew up in the church. And while I’ve continued to grow and mature my faith, ask the tough questions and continue my bible studies, I still don’t know what it’s like to not have been a believer all your life. So maybe doing some reading outside my normal genre would help me understand what it’s like for people who didn’t grow up like I did. I could better understand where people are coming from when they investigate Christ for the first time. And if I can see things from their perspective, hopefully I can have a better conversation with them. And honestly, hopefully it will make me less afraid to have those conversations. I seen enough discussions about religion & politics that started out friendly and ended up in heated debates or worse (and that’s between family & friends)! LOL

To Jeff E – I’m sorry if you feel like your comment was taken out of context. The comment in my post was prompted out of a combination of what I read on the some of the blogs, the cartoon I saw on the previous page and I think that really is a “stereotype” that people have. I think lots of people think that to believe in God and go to church, that you must throw all commonsense and logic out the window. That you must blindly believe without asking any questions. And maybe there is a percentage of people that do just blindly believe. And I’m sure there’s churches that don’t encourage people to ask questions. But my point was that there is a large percentage of Christians out there who put a lot of thought & effort into their faith. Stereotypes go both ways and to have conversations based on “interested in understanding”, stereotypes on both sides need to be thrown out. They just aren’t productive for anyone.

On a lighter note, a few years ago before I got married I briefly dated a Buddhist and someone who was Jewish. And those were some of the most interesting conversations I’ve ever had! I loved hearing about their beliefs firsthand and having the opportunity to ask questions. They were great conversations because they really were based on trying to understand rather than any intent to convert. So it can happen (those types of conversations) and when they do, it leaves a very lasting & positive impression. erica*

As far as the assertions go – you can choose to believe, the “scientific” evidence proves creationism/ID overwhelmingly, etc. – most of them will never, ever change their minds, because they have too much invested in being right.

The difference between what I said and what you are implying I said is obvious.

Saganist got the idea when he said,

Here are some magic words for showing love to an atheist (or anyone, really). “I’m interested in understanding what you have to say.” No ulterior motives, just understanding. That spells love to me.

It’s that “interested in understanding” part that is essential to dialogue, which is essential to civil society. Not interested in changing, converting, teaching, etc., but in understanding. The goal of dialogue, if there is a goal, is to open oneself and to learn about the other, not vice-versa.

Sadly, I think the comments from Jeff H reveal the difficulty, coming from all sides, with dialogue:

Those questions were all so predictable; there was nary a one that didn’t conform to the stereotype… To me, this demonstrates the impossibility of dialogue… As far as the assertions go … most of them will never, ever change their minds, because they have too much invested in being right.

If the goal of dialogue is getting them to change their minds, then yes, dialogue is impossible. That’s because you no longer have dialogue. You have certitude that forecloses on the possibility of new understanding. Ironically, oftentimes arrogant certitude that seeks conversion isn’t exclusive to Christians or religious people.

I’m wondering if you’ve read the book called “Letters from a Skeptic” by Dr Gregory Boyd? I’d suggest it, not as a means of trying to convert you, but I think its an interesting book from either side. The book is based on letters from Dr Boyd and his father (who was a skeptic). His father asks a lot of great questions and Dr Boyd provides some interesting info. I definitely found it to be a fascinating read.

Hi Erica — Thanks for your comment. I haven’t read the book yet but I think a church member is sending it to me because I thought the premise sounded interesting. Now, I wonder if we can get you to read books by atheists that question the validity of the other things you might be reading…

I’m wondering if you’ve read the book called “Letters from a Skeptic” by Dr Gregory Boyd? I’d suggest it, not as a means of trying to convert you, but I think its an interesting book from either side. The book is based on letters from Dr Boyd and his father (who was a skeptic). His father asks a lot of great questions and Dr Boyd provides some interesting info. I definitely found it to be a fascinating read.

As far as the comments on this page, all I can say is that I feel like I can devote my life to Christ without turning my brain off. I’ve seen scientific and historical evidence that supports the Bible. I’m definitely engaging my brain when I’m studying & reading the Bible. It’s the only book I can think of, that seems like you could read it all your life and still keep learning from it. My personal journey with Christ involves continuous learning & improvement – I’m definitely a work-in-progress, that’s for sure!

As far Christians constantly trying to convert people, it’s our calling plain & simple. It’s not supposed to be a battle of who’s right and who’s wrong, unfortunately a lot of Christians come across that way. God has called us to spread the Gospel and bring as many to Christ as we can before he returns. So I won’t apologize for that, granted I think most Christians (myself included) could definitely go about it a better & more respectful way. It’s hard to talk about religion, it’s so personal and generally such a taboo subject. People are so passionate it about it from both sides and I think that definitely contributes to well-intended conversations going south.

Anyway, thank you for coming to our church! It was a very interesting evening. Take care, erica*

* From a scientific standpoint, all evidence points to an Intelligent Creator (God)… Do you have presuppositions that influence your choices how to interpret this huge amount of evidence? P.S. Do you think we are fools?

* Do you not question the validity of a master designer when you see the change of seasons, the complexity of the human body… do you believe you evolved from an ape?

* How do you apply Laws of thermodynamics, conservation of energy, & creation of man from a non-God perspective?

Wheee! ID proponents are fun.

* How do you explain the concept of love without belief in God?

Interesting story: my high school psychology teacher asked us to all write down a definition of “love”, then she read them all out loud. It was interesting. There were a few “God is love” type things thrown in, but in general the definitions were scattered all over the board. Personally, I wrote down a couple lines from a song. Mine kind of stuck out from the rest, and the teacher asked (with a smile) if I would be willing to explain why I wrote it. I said something to the effect that love is a highly subjective experience, and there is no correct definition, so I didn’t see the point in trying to do better than some random poet or songwriter. I got an A in that class.

* As an atheist, would you allow your children to make their own decisions about Christianity?

This is an interesting one for me, because I already have a young child. I actually intend to educate my son about religion, and I very much hope that he does make up his own mind about it. Of course, I also intend to educate him about science, skepticism, and critical thinking, so I will be very surprised if he decides to become a theist.

Where do you find joy when there is such sorrow and pain — either in the world or in your life?

Agreed, there is plenty of joy to be found in friends and loved ones. I guess the key is in understanding that we can’t really do much about most of the sorrow and pain in the world. And when it comes to the sorrow and pain in our own lives, I actually find it much more comforting to think that there’s no “plan” involved in my suffering, that crap just happens and we have to deal with it. The alternative is that God is a real d***.

* What can we say/do to a “non-believer” in 10-20 words or less to show them Christian love?

Here’s what you can do:
Say “I care about you as a person even though you don’t believe as I do.”
Say “I respect your right to not believe.”
Stop talking and listen from time to time.
Be a good person without making it seem like you’re only doing so because you’re trying to score points with God.

Things you shouldn’t do:
Try to convince me that my life is amoral or without purpose.
Try to convince me that science has it all wrong.
Make assumptions about me because I don’t believe in God. If you want to know my thoughts on a subject, just ask.
Tell me that Jesus/God/etc loves me. If I don’t believe in them, then that’s just your opinion. I’m much more interested in how you feel about me.

Those questions are rather stupid.

And that girl is rather cute!

How do I get your job?

You have to be brown.

And that girl is rather cute!

How do I get your job?