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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Untouchable&#8221; Boy Killed Over a Poem</title>
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	<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/15/untouchable-boy-killed-over-a-poem/</link>
	<description>Atheism with Positivity</description>
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		<title>By: Spork</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/15/untouchable-boy-killed-over-a-poem/comment-page-1/#comment-206297</link>
		<dc:creator>Spork</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jul 2008 12:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/15/untouchable-boy-killed-over-a-poem/#comment-206297</guid>
		<description>n.s.

Y&#039;all are still a bunch of violent, irrational nutbags.  That part isn&#039;t very complicated at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>n.s.</p>
<p>Y&#8217;all are still a bunch of violent, irrational nutbags.  That part isn&#8217;t very complicated at all.</p>
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		<title>By: n.s.</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/15/untouchable-boy-killed-over-a-poem/comment-page-1/#comment-203641</link>
		<dc:creator>n.s.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 09:49:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/15/untouchable-boy-killed-over-a-poem/#comment-203641</guid>
		<description>I think Katie have understood the problem.

I believe most of the people posting here are non-Indians, so most of them will have less information about the current situation than I am. 

As said by Katie, the problem is with failed administration and judicial system. 
Cipher asked “Is this a legacy of British colonialism?” well, some of it is that; and some of it is our traditions.

Every parent and every teacher consider it their fundamental right to beat up kids, if they have done anything wrong according to society rules.
This is based upon our old traditions.
Police &amp; Government officials can pick anybody, and beat them.
This is a legacy of colonialism.

As an answer to question asked by many, is caste system still prevalent in India?
Yes it is still there, mostly in far off areas.

One person here asked what could have been wrong in a love poem. 

The love poem is itself wrong accordingly to culture of rural India. As I already said, a teacher will beat up student if he has written a love poem/letter to a girl in school, no matter what his caste or religion is.

By the way love or sex is not bad things according to Indian religions and gods. They are bad according to Judeo-Christian-Islamic God, 
but these are bad according to Indian culture. 
And they will be bad according to many Hindus (because of our current culture).
That’s true, it is very complex situation.
Foreigners will find it very difficult to understand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Katie have understood the problem.</p>
<p>I believe most of the people posting here are non-Indians, so most of them will have less information about the current situation than I am. </p>
<p>As said by Katie, the problem is with failed administration and judicial system.<br />
Cipher asked “Is this a legacy of British colonialism?” well, some of it is that; and some of it is our traditions.</p>
<p>Every parent and every teacher consider it their fundamental right to beat up kids, if they have done anything wrong according to society rules.<br />
This is based upon our old traditions.<br />
Police &amp; Government officials can pick anybody, and beat them.<br />
This is a legacy of colonialism.</p>
<p>As an answer to question asked by many, is caste system still prevalent in India?<br />
Yes it is still there, mostly in far off areas.</p>
<p>One person here asked what could have been wrong in a love poem. </p>
<p>The love poem is itself wrong accordingly to culture of rural India. As I already said, a teacher will beat up student if he has written a love poem/letter to a girl in school, no matter what his caste or religion is.</p>
<p>By the way love or sex is not bad things according to Indian religions and gods. They are bad according to Judeo-Christian-Islamic God,<br />
but these are bad according to Indian culture.<br />
And they will be bad according to many Hindus (because of our current culture).<br />
That’s true, it is very complex situation.<br />
Foreigners will find it very difficult to understand.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/15/untouchable-boy-killed-over-a-poem/comment-page-1/#comment-203555</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 06:27:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/15/untouchable-boy-killed-over-a-poem/#comment-203555</guid>
		<description>OK, how much money does he need to file a lawsuit?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, how much money does he need to file a lawsuit?</p>
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		<title>By: Spork</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/15/untouchable-boy-killed-over-a-poem/comment-page-1/#comment-203295</link>
		<dc:creator>Spork</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 20:57:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/15/untouchable-boy-killed-over-a-poem/#comment-203295</guid>
		<description>The caste system was incorporated into Hinduism based on the religious belief in reincarnation.  Your Karmic debt or credits from past lives dictated into what caste it is into which one is born.

So, Christophe, you could try to do a wee bit of research now and again, mmmkay?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The caste system was incorporated into Hinduism based on the religious belief in reincarnation.  Your Karmic debt or credits from past lives dictated into what caste it is into which one is born.</p>
<p>So, Christophe, you could try to do a wee bit of research now and again, mmmkay?</p>
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		<title>By: Katie</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/15/untouchable-boy-killed-over-a-poem/comment-page-1/#comment-203249</link>
		<dc:creator>Katie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 18:09:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/15/untouchable-boy-killed-over-a-poem/#comment-203249</guid>
		<description>As has been mentioned, this has little to do with the caste system and an awful lot more to do with general lack of appropriate legal repercussions to criminal behavior in India.

That&#039;s not to say that the caste system (which is indeed religious - it is irrational faith-based dogma with no grounding in reality, even if it is not specifically Hindu, it is still irrational superstitious nonsense) isn&#039;t an atrocious thing. It certainly is. It&#039;s repulsive. It&#039;s completely antithetical to human rights and the most basic concept of equality.

I hope this event and others like it can eventually trigger a response to tear down this ancient evil.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As has been mentioned, this has little to do with the caste system and an awful lot more to do with general lack of appropriate legal repercussions to criminal behavior in India.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s not to say that the caste system (which is indeed religious &#8211; it is irrational faith-based dogma with no grounding in reality, even if it is not specifically Hindu, it is still irrational superstitious nonsense) isn&#8217;t an atrocious thing. It certainly is. It&#8217;s repulsive. It&#8217;s completely antithetical to human rights and the most basic concept of equality.</p>
<p>I hope this event and others like it can eventually trigger a response to tear down this ancient evil.</p>
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		<title>By: Polly</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/15/untouchable-boy-killed-over-a-poem/comment-page-1/#comment-203231</link>
		<dc:creator>Polly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 17:22:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/15/untouchable-boy-killed-over-a-poem/#comment-203231</guid>
		<description>I hear a lot of condemnation of &quot;liberal&quot; cultural relativism. So far, no one has actually said that this practice is acceptable. It seems like we&#039;re attacking windmills.

I may draw some ire for saying this:
 
I would not advocate any kind of external pressure from the US or any so-called &quot;community of nations&quot; to force India to change.

 Why? 

#1) Because we&#039;ve got a lot of our own shit to get straight and we would, quite rightly, be accused of hypocrisy. Case in point: just recently after decades of being denied water service on racial grounds, the black residents of Muskingham County, Ohio have finally won their court battle and will receive water service just as if they were white. Imagine that! We are NOT better, just &lt;i&gt;differently&lt;/i&gt; dysfunctional. There are good and bad cultural practices and we should start eliminating the bad from our own country first.

#2)Another reason is that humanitarian causes are often cynically exploited as cover for eliminating the competition among western military and corporate rulers.
 They spread propaganda to make the &quot;other&quot; look barbaric, and thus justify collective punishment on a whole society for, what is usually, &lt;b&gt;a statistically infrequent occurence&lt;/b&gt;. They end up hurting the ones they&#039;re supposed to be help while the rich never lack recourse even in dire times.
#3) Also, as Obama implied: When people are insecure (from military threats or sanctions) they clutch their guns and Vedas. Outside threats only lead to greater support for tradition and the status quo.

Bottom line, I don&#039;t trust &quot;foreigners&quot; (and that&#039;s who we are to India and to China) to be able to solve other country&#039;s internal problems which are generally rooted and tied into such a complex web of cultural interactions and institutions that our ham-fisted, single-minded demands don&#039;t even translate. We just fuck everything up, while benefitting the already powerful. 

PLUS, I never see &quot;white&quot; nations getting nominated for barbary-state status. Why is it when whites do stupid things, it&#039;s regarded as an exception, but when brown people commit atrocities it reflects on their entire nation, culture, and history?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hear a lot of condemnation of &#8220;liberal&#8221; cultural relativism. So far, no one has actually said that this practice is acceptable. It seems like we&#8217;re attacking windmills.</p>
<p>I may draw some ire for saying this:</p>
<p>I would not advocate any kind of external pressure from the US or any so-called &#8220;community of nations&#8221; to force India to change.</p>
<p> Why? </p>
<p>#1) Because we&#8217;ve got a lot of our own shit to get straight and we would, quite rightly, be accused of hypocrisy. Case in point: just recently after decades of being denied water service on racial grounds, the black residents of Muskingham County, Ohio have finally won their court battle and will receive water service just as if they were white. Imagine that! We are NOT better, just <i>differently</i> dysfunctional. There are good and bad cultural practices and we should start eliminating the bad from our own country first.</p>
<p>#2)Another reason is that humanitarian causes are often cynically exploited as cover for eliminating the competition among western military and corporate rulers.<br />
 They spread propaganda to make the &#8220;other&#8221; look barbaric, and thus justify collective punishment on a whole society for, what is usually, <b>a statistically infrequent occurence</b>. They end up hurting the ones they&#8217;re supposed to be help while the rich never lack recourse even in dire times.<br />
#3) Also, as Obama implied: When people are insecure (from military threats or sanctions) they clutch their guns and Vedas. Outside threats only lead to greater support for tradition and the status quo.</p>
<p>Bottom line, I don&#8217;t trust &#8220;foreigners&#8221; (and that&#8217;s who we are to India and to China) to be able to solve other country&#8217;s internal problems which are generally rooted and tied into such a complex web of cultural interactions and institutions that our ham-fisted, single-minded demands don&#8217;t even translate. We just fuck everything up, while benefitting the already powerful. </p>
<p>PLUS, I never see &#8220;white&#8221; nations getting nominated for barbary-state status. Why is it when whites do stupid things, it&#8217;s regarded as an exception, but when brown people commit atrocities it reflects on their entire nation, culture, and history?</p>
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		<title>By: Father Shaggy</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/15/untouchable-boy-killed-over-a-poem/comment-page-1/#comment-203216</link>
		<dc:creator>Father Shaggy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 16:35:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/15/untouchable-boy-killed-over-a-poem/#comment-203216</guid>
		<description>I am a horrible man.  I was wondering if they managed to beat him to death without actually touching him.

Or is the &quot;untouchable&quot; thing not so rigidly enforced these days?  And if so, what was the problem?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a horrible man.  I was wondering if they managed to beat him to death without actually touching him.</p>
<p>Or is the &#8220;untouchable&#8221; thing not so rigidly enforced these days?  And if so, what was the problem?</p>
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		<title>By: cipher</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/15/untouchable-boy-killed-over-a-poem/comment-page-1/#comment-203190</link>
		<dc:creator>cipher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:53:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/15/untouchable-boy-killed-over-a-poem/#comment-203190</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I live in India, and one of the things I hate most here is the liberty given to teachers to beat up kids, injuring them many times, and even killing them in few instances.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

n.s.,

I really had no idea. Is this a legacy of British colonialism? In any case, now I &lt;em&gt;really&lt;/em&gt; want to start a boycott.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I live in India, and one of the things I hate most here is the liberty given to teachers to beat up kids, injuring them many times, and even killing them in few instances.</p></blockquote>
<p>n.s.,</p>
<p>I really had no idea. Is this a legacy of British colonialism? In any case, now I <em>really</em> want to start a boycott.</p>
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		<title>By: Unspeakabley Violent Jane</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/15/untouchable-boy-killed-over-a-poem/comment-page-1/#comment-203188</link>
		<dc:creator>Unspeakabley Violent Jane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:52:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/15/untouchable-boy-killed-over-a-poem/#comment-203188</guid>
		<description>The real problem here has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with India&#039;s notoriously expensive and useless bureaucracy.  Where are the prosecuting attorneys?  Were is there justice system?

India reminds me of that old tv series Alien Nation.  All the evidence of gov&#039;t corruption is there, but no one knows who the real top dog is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The real problem here has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with India&#8217;s notoriously expensive and useless bureaucracy.  Where are the prosecuting attorneys?  Were is there justice system?</p>
<p>India reminds me of that old tv series Alien Nation.  All the evidence of gov&#8217;t corruption is there, but no one knows who the real top dog is.</p>
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		<title>By: Allytude</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/15/untouchable-boy-killed-over-a-poem/comment-page-1/#comment-203134</link>
		<dc:creator>Allytude</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:46:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/15/untouchable-boy-killed-over-a-poem/#comment-203134</guid>
		<description>The Caste system may pre-date Hinduism, but then Hinduism as I know doe s not have a defined date of inception. However, the caste system is still a religiously mandated form of discrimination, justified now on the basis of hygeine or something else. It exists and is very much there. And even if people cling to it- at the cost of their &quot;sentiments&quot; getting hurt- it is terribly discriminatory and wrong- I would digress and say that those &quot;pseudo&quot; liberals( too often I am one of them) who support it do not fullyunderstand how evil it is . - I ccan safely talk about it- from personal experience havng grown up in India and seen how completely divisive it is in communities, regions and all. That said, I wonder why we hide under multiculturalism - for want of a better word- to excus these things.
And sadly, on the incident noted above, I am not vey surprised- I have seen houses where glasses and dishes are kept aside for &quot;those people&quot; to eat out of- so this is not at all surprising. i am ashamed that it is not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Caste system may pre-date Hinduism, but then Hinduism as I know doe s not have a defined date of inception. However, the caste system is still a religiously mandated form of discrimination, justified now on the basis of hygeine or something else. It exists and is very much there. And even if people cling to it- at the cost of their &#8220;sentiments&#8221; getting hurt- it is terribly discriminatory and wrong- I would digress and say that those &#8220;pseudo&#8221; liberals( too often I am one of them) who support it do not fullyunderstand how evil it is . &#8211; I ccan safely talk about it- from personal experience havng grown up in India and seen how completely divisive it is in communities, regions and all. That said, I wonder why we hide under multiculturalism &#8211; for want of a better word- to excus these things.<br />
And sadly, on the incident noted above, I am not vey surprised- I have seen houses where glasses and dishes are kept aside for &#8220;those people&#8221; to eat out of- so this is not at all surprising. i am ashamed that it is not.</p>
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