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	<title>Comments on: Is the Story of Jesus Unique?</title>
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	<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/05/is-the-story-of-jesus-unique/</link>
	<description>Atheism with Positivity</description>
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		<title>By: J. J. Ramsey</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/05/is-the-story-of-jesus-unique/comment-page-1/#comment-198499</link>
		<dc:creator>J. J. Ramsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 01:35:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/05/is-the-story-of-jesus-unique/#comment-198499</guid>
		<description>Peter Kaufman:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
It is highly probable this stone tablet text is yet another sensationalist scam&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I doubt it, mostly because &lt;a href=&quot;http://ralphriver.blogspot.com/2008/07/vision-of-gabriel.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the actual text appears to be pretty vague&lt;/a&gt;.

BTW, TXatheist, I took a look at your list of your risen savior myths:

1) It already starts out dicey in referring flat-out to Semele as a virgin, when in many forms of the myth, she was a straight-up paramour of Zeus. There is a form of the myth of Dionysus&#039; birth where he is born from Zeus raping Persephone and dismembered by the Titans, and then his heart is ground up into a potion that impregnates Semele with Dionysus, so in that case, I think she&#039;s a virgin. Doesn&#039;t really resemble Christian myths when viewed close up though.

2) Isis, despite assertions to the contrary, is clearly disqualified from being a virgin by having sex with Osiris.

3) The account of Mithras mixes up the Mithra of the Persian religion with the Mithras of the Roman mystery religion, which appears to have borrowed little more than the name from Persia. The Mithras that was born from Anahita was not born on December 25, and the Mithras that was born on the 25th was born from a rock. The stuff about Mithras having 12 disciples is pure crap.

In short, it&#039;s an example of the strained or bogus pagan parallels that I mentioned in the previous post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter Kaufman:</p>
<blockquote><p>
It is highly probable this stone tablet text is yet another sensationalist scam</p></blockquote>
<p>I doubt it, mostly because <a href="http://ralphriver.blogspot.com/2008/07/vision-of-gabriel.html" rel="nofollow">the actual text appears to be pretty vague</a>.</p>
<p>BTW, TXatheist, I took a look at your list of your risen savior myths:</p>
<p>1) It already starts out dicey in referring flat-out to Semele as a virgin, when in many forms of the myth, she was a straight-up paramour of Zeus. There is a form of the myth of Dionysus&#8217; birth where he is born from Zeus raping Persephone and dismembered by the Titans, and then his heart is ground up into a potion that impregnates Semele with Dionysus, so in that case, I think she&#8217;s a virgin. Doesn&#8217;t really resemble Christian myths when viewed close up though.</p>
<p>2) Isis, despite assertions to the contrary, is clearly disqualified from being a virgin by having sex with Osiris.</p>
<p>3) The account of Mithras mixes up the Mithra of the Persian religion with the Mithras of the Roman mystery religion, which appears to have borrowed little more than the name from Persia. The Mithras that was born from Anahita was not born on December 25, and the Mithras that was born on the 25th was born from a rock. The stuff about Mithras having 12 disciples is pure crap.</p>
<p>In short, it&#8217;s an example of the strained or bogus pagan parallels that I mentioned in the previous post.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Clawson</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/05/is-the-story-of-jesus-unique/comment-page-1/#comment-197831</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Clawson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 20:51:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/05/is-the-story-of-jesus-unique/#comment-197831</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Mike — it’s not that they don’t consider this “authentic” — it’s more a matter of reflecting a “distinctive” point of view for the words recorded.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Umm, I&#039;m afraid I&#039;m going to have to differ with you there Steve. Authenticity seems to be very much the issue for the Seminar. For instance, the title of Robert Funk&#039;s book based on the work of the Seminar is titled &quot;The Five Gospels: The Search for the &lt;strong&gt;Authentic&lt;/strong&gt; Words of Jesus&quot;. (Not to mention the follow-up book, &quot;The Acts of Jesus: The Search for the &lt;em&gt;Authentic&lt;/em&gt; Deeds of Jesus&quot;.)And if you go to the wikipedia entry for the Jesus Seminar there&#039;s a &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar#Sayings_of_Jesus&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;whole section&lt;/a&gt; about their criterion for &quot;authenticity&quot;, by which it&#039;s pretty clearly meant whether or not Jesus actually said it. For instance, the article states:

&lt;blockquote&gt;The Seminar concluded that of the various statements in the &quot;five gospels&quot; attributed to Jesus, only about 18% of them were likely uttered by Jesus himself (red or pink).&lt;/blockquote&gt;

But at any rate, even if your interpretation of their work is correct, that is, even if this is true:

&lt;blockquote&gt;For example, the “golden rule” has been said by others besides Jesus (e.g. Hillel). Even if Jesus said the “golden rule,” since it isn’t unique to him, it doesn’t provide any information on Jesus.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That still doesn&#039;t make any sense. Just because someone else said it, it doesn&#039;t tell us anything about Jesus? Of course it does. At the very least it tells us that Jesus agreed with Hillel.

What you&#039;re suggesting is like saying that since Barack Obama&#039;s positions usually agree with a pre-existing Democratic Party platform, that therefore we don&#039;t know anything about Obama&#039;s own positions. But that&#039;s crazy. Similarity to what other people also say is no indication that ones own beliefs aren&#039;t authentic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Mike — it’s not that they don’t consider this “authentic” — it’s more a matter of reflecting a “distinctive” point of view for the words recorded.</p></blockquote>
<p>Umm, I&#8217;m afraid I&#8217;m going to have to differ with you there Steve. Authenticity seems to be very much the issue for the Seminar. For instance, the title of Robert Funk&#8217;s book based on the work of the Seminar is titled &#8220;The Five Gospels: The Search for the <strong>Authentic</strong> Words of Jesus&#8221;. (Not to mention the follow-up book, &#8220;The Acts of Jesus: The Search for the <em>Authentic</em> Deeds of Jesus&#8221;.)And if you go to the wikipedia entry for the Jesus Seminar there&#8217;s a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar#Sayings_of_Jesus" rel="nofollow">whole section</a> about their criterion for &#8220;authenticity&#8221;, by which it&#8217;s pretty clearly meant whether or not Jesus actually said it. For instance, the article states:</p>
<blockquote><p>The Seminar concluded that of the various statements in the &#8220;five gospels&#8221; attributed to Jesus, only about 18% of them were likely uttered by Jesus himself (red or pink).</p></blockquote>
<p>But at any rate, even if your interpretation of their work is correct, that is, even if this is true:</p>
<blockquote><p>For example, the “golden rule” has been said by others besides Jesus (e.g. Hillel). Even if Jesus said the “golden rule,” since it isn’t unique to him, it doesn’t provide any information on Jesus.</p></blockquote>
<p>That still doesn&#8217;t make any sense. Just because someone else said it, it doesn&#8217;t tell us anything about Jesus? Of course it does. At the very least it tells us that Jesus agreed with Hillel.</p>
<p>What you&#8217;re suggesting is like saying that since Barack Obama&#8217;s positions usually agree with a pre-existing Democratic Party platform, that therefore we don&#8217;t know anything about Obama&#8217;s own positions. But that&#8217;s crazy. Similarity to what other people also say is no indication that ones own beliefs aren&#8217;t authentic.</p>
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		<title>By: TXatheist</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/05/is-the-story-of-jesus-unique/comment-page-1/#comment-197638</link>
		<dc:creator>TXatheist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 14:27:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/05/is-the-story-of-jesus-unique/#comment-197638</guid>
		<description>Some reading on the risen savior myths.

http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/jesus_similar.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some reading on the risen savior myths.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/jesus_similar.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/jesus_similar.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Steve Caldwell</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/05/is-the-story-of-jesus-unique/comment-page-1/#comment-197388</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Caldwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 03:24:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/05/is-the-story-of-jesus-unique/#comment-197388</guid>
		<description>Mike Clawson wrote:

&lt;blockquote&gt;I know the Jesus Seminar folks have created this wacko idea that if something in the gospels is at all similar to the Judaism that preceded it or the early Christianity that followed it, it therefore can’t be counted as authentic
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Mike -- it&#039;s not that they don&#039;t consider this &quot;authentic&quot; -- it&#039;s more a matter of reflecting a &quot;distinctive&quot; point of view for the words recorded.

For example, the &quot;golden rule&quot; has been said by others besides Jesus (e.g. Hillel).  Even if Jesus said the &quot;golden rule,&quot; since it isn&#039;t unique to him, it doesn&#039;t provide any information on Jesus.

However, the sayings that are &quot;red letter&quot; in the Jesus Seminar translation do portray a distinctive voice and provide themes and ideas not reflected in the surrounding culture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike Clawson wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>I know the Jesus Seminar folks have created this wacko idea that if something in the gospels is at all similar to the Judaism that preceded it or the early Christianity that followed it, it therefore can’t be counted as authentic
</p></blockquote>
<p>Mike &#8212; it&#8217;s not that they don&#8217;t consider this &#8220;authentic&#8221; &#8212; it&#8217;s more a matter of reflecting a &#8220;distinctive&#8221; point of view for the words recorded.</p>
<p>For example, the &#8220;golden rule&#8221; has been said by others besides Jesus (e.g. Hillel).  Even if Jesus said the &#8220;golden rule,&#8221; since it isn&#8217;t unique to him, it doesn&#8217;t provide any information on Jesus.</p>
<p>However, the sayings that are &#8220;red letter&#8221; in the Jesus Seminar translation do portray a distinctive voice and provide themes and ideas not reflected in the surrounding culture.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Clawson</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/05/is-the-story-of-jesus-unique/comment-page-1/#comment-197271</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Clawson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 22:41:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/05/is-the-story-of-jesus-unique/#comment-197271</guid>
		<description>It strikes me that attempting to use this archaeological discovery as some sort of confirmation of one&#039;s pre-existing skepticism is just as inherently biased as those who would attempt to discredit it or explain it away based on a religious bias. Perhaps we should simply let the experts evaluate this stone for what it is - we don&#039;t even know if it actually says what is claimed that it says - before trying to shoehorn it into any particular partisan agenda.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It strikes me that attempting to use this archaeological discovery as some sort of confirmation of one&#8217;s pre-existing skepticism is just as inherently biased as those who would attempt to discredit it or explain it away based on a religious bias. Perhaps we should simply let the experts evaluate this stone for what it is &#8211; we don&#8217;t even know if it actually says what is claimed that it says &#8211; before trying to shoehorn it into any particular partisan agenda.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Kaufman</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/05/is-the-story-of-jesus-unique/comment-page-1/#comment-197255</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Kaufman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 21:58:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/05/is-the-story-of-jesus-unique/#comment-197255</guid>
		<description>It is highly probable this stone tablet text is yet another sensationalist scam, as is clearly indicated by the facts 

(1) that no specific information is available on its provenance and 

(2) that no details are provided on carbon dating of the ink. 

As such, this &quot;news&quot; falls right in line with the faked Lost-Tomb-of-Jesus &quot;documentary&quot; designed to make a profit off of people&#039;s fascination with the &quot;real&quot; Jesus, and with the larger scandal of the biased and misleading way (oriented towards a Christian audience) the Dead Sea scrolls are being presented in museum exhibits around the world. See, e.g., 

http://spinozaslens.com/libet/articles/dworkin_ethicsofexhibition.htm 

and 

http://blog.news-record.com/staff/frontpew/archives/2008/06/dead_sea_scroll.shtml.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is highly probable this stone tablet text is yet another sensationalist scam, as is clearly indicated by the facts </p>
<p>(1) that no specific information is available on its provenance and </p>
<p>(2) that no details are provided on carbon dating of the ink. </p>
<p>As such, this &#8220;news&#8221; falls right in line with the faked Lost-Tomb-of-Jesus &#8220;documentary&#8221; designed to make a profit off of people&#8217;s fascination with the &#8220;real&#8221; Jesus, and with the larger scandal of the biased and misleading way (oriented towards a Christian audience) the Dead Sea scrolls are being presented in museum exhibits around the world. See, e.g., </p>
<p><a href="http://spinozaslens.com/libet/articles/dworkin_ethicsofexhibition.htm" rel="nofollow">http://spinozaslens.com/libet/articles/dworkin_ethicsofexhibition.htm</a> </p>
<p>and </p>
<p><a href="http://blog.news-record.com/staff/frontpew/archives/2008/06/dead_sea_scroll.shtml." rel="nofollow">http://blog.news-record.com/staff/frontpew/archives/2008/06/dead_sea_scroll.shtml.</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/05/is-the-story-of-jesus-unique/comment-page-1/#comment-197247</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 21:43:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/05/is-the-story-of-jesus-unique/#comment-197247</guid>
		<description>Of course all of that evidence that Jesus was just a man was placed there by the devil to challenge our faith...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course all of that evidence that Jesus was just a man was placed there by the devil to challenge our faith&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Wade</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/05/is-the-story-of-jesus-unique/comment-page-1/#comment-197232</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 21:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/05/is-the-story-of-jesus-unique/#comment-197232</guid>
		<description>You could unearth Jesus&#039; skeleton, complete with wounds in hands and feet, with his photo ID in his wallet saying &quot;Jesus of Nazareth,&quot; his driver&#039;s license showing he was authorized to drive donkeys only, two utility bills with his name and most recent address, 112 North Olive Tree Drive, Jerusalem, Palestiine, 26160, clutching a video tape cassette (they used Beta back then) showing highlights of his life and death including the parts about &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; performing any miracles and &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; coming back to life, the local coroner&#039;s report giving the dates of his death and the autopsy four days later and the burial the next day &#039;cause he was getting ripe, Mary&#039;s signed, witnessed and notarized confession that she did it with Amal the Potter and just made up that fib about an angel to keep Joseph from getting pissed off and killing her with stones, and finally signed affidavits by all the apostles witnessed by Romans, Pharisees and whatnot saying unequivocally &quot;Hey it was all just a scam to get some free food but it got outa hand,&quot; and still people will believe whatever their parents told them to believe when they were little.

Faith is impervious to reason, unaffected by evidence, invulnerable to logic.  Most believers rely heavily on faith to preserve their beliefs.  Arguing with them using reason, evidence and logic is like shooting spit balls at a battleship.  Some believers will venture out and exchange arguments in the reason/evidence/logic forum, but when their arguments are shot full of holes they run back inside their impenetrable fortress of faith and say, &quot;Well regardless of everything you say and everything you show me, this is what I believe and you can&#039;t shake me, so there, nya nya nya.&quot;  It&#039;s a complete waste of time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You could unearth Jesus&#8217; skeleton, complete with wounds in hands and feet, with his photo ID in his wallet saying &#8220;Jesus of Nazareth,&#8221; his driver&#8217;s license showing he was authorized to drive donkeys only, two utility bills with his name and most recent address, 112 North Olive Tree Drive, Jerusalem, Palestiine, 26160, clutching a video tape cassette (they used Beta back then) showing highlights of his life and death including the parts about <em>not</em> performing any miracles and <em>not</em> coming back to life, the local coroner&#8217;s report giving the dates of his death and the autopsy four days later and the burial the next day &#8217;cause he was getting ripe, Mary&#8217;s signed, witnessed and notarized confession that she did it with Amal the Potter and just made up that fib about an angel to keep Joseph from getting pissed off and killing her with stones, and finally signed affidavits by all the apostles witnessed by Romans, Pharisees and whatnot saying unequivocally &#8220;Hey it was all just a scam to get some free food but it got outa hand,&#8221; and still people will believe whatever their parents told them to believe when they were little.</p>
<p>Faith is impervious to reason, unaffected by evidence, invulnerable to logic.  Most believers rely heavily on faith to preserve their beliefs.  Arguing with them using reason, evidence and logic is like shooting spit balls at a battleship.  Some believers will venture out and exchange arguments in the reason/evidence/logic forum, but when their arguments are shot full of holes they run back inside their impenetrable fortress of faith and say, &#8220;Well regardless of everything you say and everything you show me, this is what I believe and you can&#8217;t shake me, so there, nya nya nya.&#8221;  It&#8217;s a complete waste of time.</p>
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		<title>By: Darryl</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/05/is-the-story-of-jesus-unique/comment-page-1/#comment-197193</link>
		<dc:creator>Darryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 19:31:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/05/is-the-story-of-jesus-unique/#comment-197193</guid>
		<description>When it comes to religion, serious argumentation, filled with technical jargon, and appeals to history and archeology and versions of ancient texts, and to the researches of this scholar and that scholar, is like a book club for enthusiasts of a great novelist.  If an unknown short story is discovered among the effects of the now-deceased novelist, and it has a topical bearing upon the life of the novelist&#039;s fictional hero, the club will commence arguing over how it fits with the rest of the novels, and what it might mean to their interpretation.  It may dash some interpretations and support others, but its authenticity will not be denied.  

The difference between religion and the book club is that the latter knows that the book they&#039;re discussing is fiction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When it comes to religion, serious argumentation, filled with technical jargon, and appeals to history and archeology and versions of ancient texts, and to the researches of this scholar and that scholar, is like a book club for enthusiasts of a great novelist.  If an unknown short story is discovered among the effects of the now-deceased novelist, and it has a topical bearing upon the life of the novelist&#8217;s fictional hero, the club will commence arguing over how it fits with the rest of the novels, and what it might mean to their interpretation.  It may dash some interpretations and support others, but its authenticity will not be denied.  </p>
<p>The difference between religion and the book club is that the latter knows that the book they&#8217;re discussing is fiction.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephanie</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/05/is-the-story-of-jesus-unique/comment-page-1/#comment-197186</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephanie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 18:58:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/07/05/is-the-story-of-jesus-unique/#comment-197186</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re talking about people who think the dinosaurs were planted in the Earth as a test of their faith. Do you really think ANY evidence can stand up to that kind of egocentric arrogance?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re talking about people who think the dinosaurs were planted in the Earth as a test of their faith. Do you really think ANY evidence can stand up to that kind of egocentric arrogance?</p>
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