I would say a large percentage of American Christians idolize and worship the idea of Christianity more so than God himself.

OK, that sounds like a good description. I just disagree with using the word “religious” to describe that group of people. In fact, I would say they are less religious since they aren’t taking their religion very seriously!

But money isn’t religion, it just is!

Exactly! You got it. Money in itself is not good or bad, but if we start to let our desire for money influence our ability to think clearly, then it becomes an idol.

I know you call yourself a Christian, so what are you doing that isn’t “religious” but other Christians are that are worthless?

I don’t know if I can qualify my actions as worthwhile or the actions of others as worthless. I have no way of knowing the inner workings of someone else’s mind. All I know is what I know, and sometimes (well, often) my actions do not comply with that knowledge. I just try to make the best of each moment, but as in all things… you win some and you lose some.

“What percentage of Christians worship the Bible and not God?”

Hmm… I would say a large percentage. It’s not even just about the Bible. Many self-proclaimed Christians don’t ever read the Bible (shoking, I know.)I would say a large percentage of American Christians idolize and worship the idea of Christianity more so than God himself.

That is just my opinion and my view, which is, after all, only one of many.

Anyway, when you use the word religious to describe anyone with a belief in God and group them all together, it becomes very subjective.

I don’t think I’ve ever said that. I said religion is the stuff people do because of their beliefs about a god or gods. Some deists might not be religious. Just a simple belief about something a person calls “God” is not a religion until they start doing things (praying, chanting, studying supposedly divine revelations, gathering with others, proselytizing, etc.)

“God is not religion. God just is.”

But you can say that about any system you are calling “religion”. You might say someone is worshiping money, and that’s their religion. But money isn’t religion, it just is!

When I put religion (your definition) in the same category as the other things I’ve referred to, it’s because they are all worthless endeavors in the end.

I know you call yourself a Christian, so what are you doing that isn’t “religious” but other Christians are that are worthless?

Can you estimate what percentage of American Christians are “religious?”

Of course I see that as a silly question myself, since by definition (mine and most other folks) Christianity IS a religion. It’s like asking what percentage of vegetarians don’t eat meat.

A better question to get the answer you would want to the one above is “What percentage of Christians worship the Bible and not God?”

If I can’t use the word “religious” like I’d want to, how can I talk about groups of Muslims, Christians, etc when these groups are clearly different from groups like running fanatics, workaholics, trekkies, and baseball fans?

You do have a point. They are clearly different in a narrower sense. But on a more broader sense, they are not. By the way, trekkies and baseball fans do not really apply, unless they are fanatical. Unless the pure enjoyment becomes an obsession and starts to influence their judgment…

Anyway, when you use the word religious to describe anyone with a belief in God and group them all together, it becomes very subjective. God is not religion. God just is. Religion is made up by people as a means to point to God. The problem arises when people begin to worship the pointer rather than God and start to have a competition as to who has the better pointer.

When I put religion (your definition) in the same category as the other things I’ve referred to, it’s because they are all worthless endeavors in the end. None of those things will give us happiness, peace, salvation, virgins, or whatever our ultimate quest happens to be…

Yes… I did, didn’t I? Since I tend to separate religion from God, I meant anything other than God. That’s where you and I clash on the definition. I call religion everything other than God himself/itself; and you call religion only what has to do with the idea of God.

I’m more confused now! You said religion is “worship of something”, and since you said you worship God, I say (even by your definition) you are religious. I’m not saying God is religious (unless he worships something??). Or maybe you mean you (we) are God in the pantheistic sense, so therefore not religious?

Just to reiterate, I think my definition of “religion” is pretty close to common usage. It just means the stuff people do because of their belief about a god or gods. Here’s Wiki’s take:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion#Definitions_of_religion

The fear has power over them. It looms over their lives. They cannot make a move without it. But who gives it that power?

Nobody. Their brains are just not functioning properly.

All of the above are idol worship in my opinion.

So why not use the word “idolatry” instead of “religious”?

Would you say your average American Christian is religious by your definition? How do I tell the difference between a “religious” Christian and a non-”religious” Christian?

I just feel like you could use descriptors like “obsessed”, “arrogant”, and “fanatic” to describe the kinds of people you are calling “religious”. If I can’t use the word “religious” like I’d want to, how can I talk about groups of Muslims, Christians, etc when these groups are clearly different from groups like running fanatics, workaholics, trekkies, and baseball fans?

“I think religion can be anything that we decide to worship.” And your recent comment says, “I worship my God who I know is not the same God that many atheists and even some theists refer to.” But I thought you have said elsewhere that you aren’t religious (by your definition)?

Yes… I did, didn’t I? Since I tend to separate religion from God, I meant anything other than God. That’s where you and I clash on the definition. I call religion everything other than God himself/itself; and you call religion only what has to do with the idea of God.

I have a better, but a bit informal word for that: a hang-up.

Yes, hang-up is a good word. We all have our hang-ups.

The fear is affecting their lives significantly if they become confined to their home. But would you say they are “worshiping” their fear?

The fear has power over them. It looms over their lives. They cannot make a move without it. But who gives it that power?

My take on “idol worship” is just that. Worshipping something, giving something power to control us, when the thing has no power on its own… When it happens to be something that we all agree is negative, bad, or wrong… yes, I guess we call it hang-ups, phobias, addictions, whatever… It’s the wrong way to be, so we get obsessed with trying to fix it.

When it happens to be something that we all agree is positive, good, or the “right thing to do”, such as wealth, health, fitness, success, education, etc., then it becomes desirable and encouraged… rewarded. It’s the right way to be, so we get obsessed with chasing after it.

When it happens to be religion (your definition) and dealing with righteousness, the judgment of others and the elitist mindset start to cloud our rational thinking. We get so obsessed with both trying to do what’s right and also condemning what’s wrong (which seems to be everything about human nature), that our own free thinking goes right out the door.

All of the above are idol worship in my opinion.

OK, earlier you said, “I think religion can be anything that we decide to worship.” And your recent comment says, “I worship my God who I know is not the same God that many atheists and even some theists refer to.” But I thought you have said elsewhere that you aren’t religious (by your definition)?

Before you said, “But as humans, we will still seek out something else that have those elements that we can cling to. Then we will end up worshipping whatever that new thing is.”

I think most atheists try not to worship (by yours, or anyone’s definition) anything. If we can do it (or at least try our best) any human can.

Finally, regarding the object of worship, you said, “That thing can be our fear, our shame, our guilt, our desires, our pain, our obsessions, or even our own ideas of God.” Lets take ‘fear’ as an example. When do people worship fear? I’m not really clear on that.

Imagine a person with agoraphobia. To quote Wikipedia “Agoraphobia is an anxiety disorder, often precipitated by the fear of having a panic attack in a setting from which there is no easy means of escape. As a result, sufferers of agoraphobia may avoid public and/or unfamiliar places. In severe cases, the sufferer may become confined to their home, experiencing difficulty traveling from this “safe place.”"

The fear is affecting their lives significantly if they become confined to their home. But would you say they are “worshiping” their fear?

You say, “When we allow anything to take over our minds and affect the way we think… if we let our decisions be influenced by whatever it is that grips us, then it is worship.”

I have a better, but a bit informal word for that: a hang-up.

To me, worship is what we do when we let something have power over us. When we allow anything to take over our minds and affect the way we think… if we let our decisions be influenced by whatever it is that grips us, then it is worship. That thing can be our fear, our shame, our guilt, our desires, our pain, our obsessions, or even our own ideas of God.

I worship my God who I know is not the same God that many atheists and even some theists refer to. My God is the abundant life, grace, and unconditional love. That’s who/what I worship. I freely surrender to and trust my God; and in turn, I have the complete freedom to love… and live my life in every part.

Remembering that on a daily, even hourly, basis is where the struggle is. There’s always something/someone else that tries to take control of our free-thought… and that includes religion as you define it. I choose to categorize all of it as religion, as they all serve the same purpose of controlling us in one way or another.

Sorry, I lost this thread in my inbox…

I guess I have to ask, how do you define “worship”.