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	<title>Comments on: Praying in the Hospital</title>
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	<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/06/19/praying-in-the-hospital/</link>
	<description>Atheism with Positivity</description>
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		<title>By: valhar2000</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/06/19/praying-in-the-hospital/comment-page-1/#comment-188581</link>
		<dc:creator>valhar2000</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 16:05:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/06/19/praying-in-the-hospital/#comment-188581</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;there is an enormous body of anecdotal “evidence” to the contrary that I’m not prepared to simply dismiss summarily.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I do dismiss it. Any consideration I give to the supernatural is either for entertainment purposes or as an exercise in pedantry.

One of the many reasons I do so is things like &lt;a href=&quot;http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7457653.stm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt;. I&#039;ve only recently seen that article, but I&#039;ve heard about the ideas referenced there many times, and experienced some of them myself. People just aren&#039;t that reliable; that&#039;s why the scientific method had to be invented.

By the way, I got the link from the Ecstathy blog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>there is an enormous body of anecdotal “evidence” to the contrary that I’m not prepared to simply dismiss summarily.</p></blockquote>
<p>I do dismiss it. Any consideration I give to the supernatural is either for entertainment purposes or as an exercise in pedantry.</p>
<p>One of the many reasons I do so is things like <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7457653.stm" rel="nofollow">this</a>. I&#8217;ve only recently seen that article, but I&#8217;ve heard about the ideas referenced there many times, and experienced some of them myself. People just aren&#8217;t that reliable; that&#8217;s why the scientific method had to be invented.</p>
<p>By the way, I got the link from the Ecstathy blog.</p>
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		<title>By: cipher</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/06/19/praying-in-the-hospital/comment-page-1/#comment-188520</link>
		<dc:creator>cipher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:51:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/06/19/praying-in-the-hospital/#comment-188520</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Incidentally, Jain was also a co-investigator on the largest study to date on the effect of intercessory prayer, finding “that being prayed for did not improve outcomes, and it seemed to have a negative effect when patients knew they were the subject of prayers from afar.”&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I think I&#039;ve mentioned this here before - in the nineties, Larry Dossey claimed to have done a meta-study of experiments dealing with prayer and the healing process - supposedly there was something on the order of 140 or so at the time - and he claimed that there was a positive correlation. This became the basis of his next three books. Now, this study comes along and seems to debunk that. 

Although I&#039;m an atheist, I&#039;m not committed to radical materialism. If it turns out that the materialists are correct, I won&#039;t be at all surprised; however, there is an enormous body of anecdotal &quot;evidence&quot; to the contrary that I&#039;m not prepared to simply dismiss summarily.

So now I don&#039;t know &lt;em&gt;what &lt;/em&gt;to think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Incidentally, Jain was also a co-investigator on the largest study to date on the effect of intercessory prayer, finding “that being prayed for did not improve outcomes, and it seemed to have a negative effect when patients knew they were the subject of prayers from afar.”</p></blockquote>
<p>I think I&#8217;ve mentioned this here before &#8211; in the nineties, Larry Dossey claimed to have done a meta-study of experiments dealing with prayer and the healing process &#8211; supposedly there was something on the order of 140 or so at the time &#8211; and he claimed that there was a positive correlation. This became the basis of his next three books. Now, this study comes along and seems to debunk that. </p>
<p>Although I&#8217;m an atheist, I&#8217;m not committed to radical materialism. If it turns out that the materialists are correct, I won&#8217;t be at all surprised; however, there is an enormous body of anecdotal &#8220;evidence&#8221; to the contrary that I&#8217;m not prepared to simply dismiss summarily.</p>
<p>So now I don&#8217;t know <em>what </em>to think.</p>
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		<title>By: Eliza</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/06/19/praying-in-the-hospital/comment-page-1/#comment-188442</link>
		<dc:creator>Eliza</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 06:31:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/06/19/praying-in-the-hospital/#comment-188442</guid>
		<description>In the hospital, &quot;spiritual care&quot; practitioners are available 24/7, &amp; on relatively short notice they can call in someone whose religion matches that of the patient (or family) requesting spiritual attention.  I&#039;ve had chaplains join us in conferences with families of critically or terminally ill patients, &amp; their presence has (so far) been quite useful, usually more for the family, but sometimes also as a sort of cultural translator, letting us know what considerations may be most important to this family or patient.

For outpatients, I try to remember to ask patients who are going through difficult times, whether it&#039;s due to health or something else, whether religion or spirituality is or has been a source of support for them.  Clearly, people often find comfort in religion, especially in difficult times.  I have done things like search online in the exam room to help a patient locate a church of their preferred denomination, or a counselor who identifies as being of the same religion.  

But: I wouldn&#039;t pray with a patient, or pretend to pray with a patient.  I think I&#039;ve said, on the few occasions when a patient or family member directly asked me to pray with them, that I don&#039;t pray.  It seems OK to me to do the passive pretend-to-go-along-with-grace thing at the dinner table, but not OK to pretend to go along with prayer for someone who is vulnerable &amp; seeking a type of support &amp; reassurance that I am not going to be able to truthfully provide.  (And, which I&#039;m pretty sure I&#039;d fake really badly, and awkwardly.)

Most awkward thing for me is long-time patients in my primary care practice who assume I must be Christian, without ever asking.  I haven&#039;t figured out how to dispel their impression, in a way that feels like it&#039;s not in-their-face &amp; also which points out that I&#039;m still the same person.  (These are people for whom a red A or an FSM pin on my lapel wouldn&#039;t serve as a hint.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the hospital, &#8220;spiritual care&#8221; practitioners are available 24/7, &amp; on relatively short notice they can call in someone whose religion matches that of the patient (or family) requesting spiritual attention.  I&#8217;ve had chaplains join us in conferences with families of critically or terminally ill patients, &amp; their presence has (so far) been quite useful, usually more for the family, but sometimes also as a sort of cultural translator, letting us know what considerations may be most important to this family or patient.</p>
<p>For outpatients, I try to remember to ask patients who are going through difficult times, whether it&#8217;s due to health or something else, whether religion or spirituality is or has been a source of support for them.  Clearly, people often find comfort in religion, especially in difficult times.  I have done things like search online in the exam room to help a patient locate a church of their preferred denomination, or a counselor who identifies as being of the same religion.  </p>
<p>But: I wouldn&#8217;t pray with a patient, or pretend to pray with a patient.  I think I&#8217;ve said, on the few occasions when a patient or family member directly asked me to pray with them, that I don&#8217;t pray.  It seems OK to me to do the passive pretend-to-go-along-with-grace thing at the dinner table, but not OK to pretend to go along with prayer for someone who is vulnerable &amp; seeking a type of support &amp; reassurance that I am not going to be able to truthfully provide.  (And, which I&#8217;m pretty sure I&#8217;d fake really badly, and awkwardly.)</p>
<p>Most awkward thing for me is long-time patients in my primary care practice who assume I must be Christian, without ever asking.  I haven&#8217;t figured out how to dispel their impression, in a way that feels like it&#8217;s not in-their-face &amp; also which points out that I&#8217;m still the same person.  (These are people for whom a red A or an FSM pin on my lapel wouldn&#8217;t serve as a hint.)</p>
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		<title>By: Jen</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/06/19/praying-in-the-hospital/comment-page-1/#comment-188406</link>
		<dc:creator>Jen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 04:29:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/06/19/praying-in-the-hospital/#comment-188406</guid>
		<description>It would highly bother me if a doctor told me (s)he was praying for me.  What the hell for?  Go back and consult other doctors if you need more solutions.  Now, if I were a doctor being asked to pray, I think I might do what I do when I have a dinner companion who prays before meals- sit there quietly, mentally rolling my eyes, and let them do the talking.  I can&#039;t be sure though- I have never had anyone ask me to pray with them at any job I have worked so far, and thank the good Spaghetti Monster for that.

Now that I am thinking about it... my dentist is a Christian.  He has some Christian/tooth-themed crap in his office.  But he certainly never prayed in front of me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would highly bother me if a doctor told me (s)he was praying for me.  What the hell for?  Go back and consult other doctors if you need more solutions.  Now, if I were a doctor being asked to pray, I think I might do what I do when I have a dinner companion who prays before meals- sit there quietly, mentally rolling my eyes, and let them do the talking.  I can&#8217;t be sure though- I have never had anyone ask me to pray with them at any job I have worked so far, and thank the good Spaghetti Monster for that.</p>
<p>Now that I am thinking about it&#8230; my dentist is a Christian.  He has some Christian/tooth-themed crap in his office.  But he certainly never prayed in front of me.</p>
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		<title>By: efrique</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/06/19/praying-in-the-hospital/comment-page-1/#comment-188389</link>
		<dc:creator>efrique</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 03:37:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/06/19/praying-in-the-hospital/#comment-188389</guid>
		<description>I find the whole notion of a doctor praying with a patient utterly astounding.

To me it seems to be an invasion of the privacy of either party, and highly likely to interfere with the professional relationship. I&#039;d no more expect it than I&#039;d expect the cable technician to pray with me over the junction box. 

I have been in religious hospitals where the hospital &lt;i&gt;offers&lt;/i&gt; patients a visit from someone (not a medical practitioner) who will pray with them and offer religious counsel (which you&#039;re entirely free to take up or not take up), but even there, there was &lt;i&gt;never&lt;/i&gt; any suggestion that the medical staff could be involved.

Is this sort of weirdness common in the US?

Fortunately, I&#039;m in no danger of the offer of a prayer session with my GP. He&#039;s an atheist.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find the whole notion of a doctor praying with a patient utterly astounding.</p>
<p>To me it seems to be an invasion of the privacy of either party, and highly likely to interfere with the professional relationship. I&#8217;d no more expect it than I&#8217;d expect the cable technician to pray with me over the junction box. </p>
<p>I have been in religious hospitals where the hospital <i>offers</i> patients a visit from someone (not a medical practitioner) who will pray with them and offer religious counsel (which you&#8217;re entirely free to take up or not take up), but even there, there was <i>never</i> any suggestion that the medical staff could be involved.</p>
<p>Is this sort of weirdness common in the US?</p>
<p>Fortunately, I&#8217;m in no danger of the offer of a prayer session with my GP. He&#8217;s an atheist.</p>
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		<title>By: The Unbrainwashed</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/06/19/praying-in-the-hospital/comment-page-1/#comment-188385</link>
		<dc:creator>The Unbrainwashed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 03:27:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/06/19/praying-in-the-hospital/#comment-188385</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sorry, but I have no sympathy with doctors like the one above.  The only sympathy I have is for atheist doctors who are put in this delicate situation.  My lack of empathy is for the same reason that I pause when mocking say Islam with a Christian.  Dawkins mentions this type of situation in the God Delusion.  Religious people always view other religions with the skeptical eye that is never  present when dissecting their own.  Thus, I laugh when a Hindu doctor gets uncomfortable or, even better, is indignant around Christianity.  It&#039;s the same thing with different names.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sorry, but I have no sympathy with doctors like the one above.  The only sympathy I have is for atheist doctors who are put in this delicate situation.  My lack of empathy is for the same reason that I pause when mocking say Islam with a Christian.  Dawkins mentions this type of situation in the God Delusion.  Religious people always view other religions with the skeptical eye that is never  present when dissecting their own.  Thus, I laugh when a Hindu doctor gets uncomfortable or, even better, is indignant around Christianity.  It&#8217;s the same thing with different names.</p>
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		<title>By: Beth</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/06/19/praying-in-the-hospital/comment-page-1/#comment-188320</link>
		<dc:creator>Beth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 00:01:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/06/19/praying-in-the-hospital/#comment-188320</guid>
		<description>No I would not pray. However I would certainly encourage positive thought as scientific studies have shown optimism improves patient outcomes. You can word things in such a way that people can take the encouragement however they want without compromising your integrity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No I would not pray. However I would certainly encourage positive thought as scientific studies have shown optimism improves patient outcomes. You can word things in such a way that people can take the encouragement however they want without compromising your integrity.</p>
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		<title>By: Maria</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/06/19/praying-in-the-hospital/comment-page-1/#comment-188296</link>
		<dc:creator>Maria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 22:44:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/06/19/praying-in-the-hospital/#comment-188296</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I think I could pray (using a generic prayer) or do a meditation exercise at a critical moment with my patient. At times, if this is uncomfortable or if there is not enough time, I could simply encourage the spiritual part of patients’ lives.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I think that&#039;s a good approach</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I think I could pray (using a generic prayer) or do a meditation exercise at a critical moment with my patient. At times, if this is uncomfortable or if there is not enough time, I could simply encourage the spiritual part of patients’ lives.</p></blockquote>
<p>I think that&#8217;s a good approach</p>
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		<title>By: Transplanted Lawyer</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/06/19/praying-in-the-hospital/comment-page-1/#comment-188247</link>
		<dc:creator>Transplanted Lawyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 20:47:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/06/19/praying-in-the-hospital/#comment-188247</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve had clients ask me to pray with them on several occasions, and I&#039;m just a lawyer handling business and real estate disputes.  But I&#039;ve had some very devout clients who seem to only be able to vent strong emotions through some sort of expression of piety.

When they&#039;ve invited me to pray with them, my response is &quot;this kind of prayer isn&#039;t really my tradition.&quot;  (A very devout client under great stress does not need to suddenly learn that her lawyer is an atheist.)  Once I had someone insist on going forward with the prayer anyway -- it was right before the first day of trial, and she grabbed my hands in the courthouse hallway and made a rambling speech imploring Jesus to come to her aid and to help me and the judge show the jury &quot;the truth.&quot;  

There were no jurors around, so I just let her do her thing and didn&#039;t protest.

We reached a settlement with the other side later that day, by the way.  Jesus didn&#039;t have nearly as much to do with it so much as the judge&#039;s rulings on preliminary motions about what evidence would be considered by the jury.

Point is, I think I did the right thing by letting my client pray the way she wanted to in a time she was feeling a lot of emotional stress, even though I did not share her belief.  I think a doctor should do something similar in an analagous situation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve had clients ask me to pray with them on several occasions, and I&#8217;m just a lawyer handling business and real estate disputes.  But I&#8217;ve had some very devout clients who seem to only be able to vent strong emotions through some sort of expression of piety.</p>
<p>When they&#8217;ve invited me to pray with them, my response is &#8220;this kind of prayer isn&#8217;t really my tradition.&#8221;  (A very devout client under great stress does not need to suddenly learn that her lawyer is an atheist.)  Once I had someone insist on going forward with the prayer anyway &#8212; it was right before the first day of trial, and she grabbed my hands in the courthouse hallway and made a rambling speech imploring Jesus to come to her aid and to help me and the judge show the jury &#8220;the truth.&#8221;  </p>
<p>There were no jurors around, so I just let her do her thing and didn&#8217;t protest.</p>
<p>We reached a settlement with the other side later that day, by the way.  Jesus didn&#8217;t have nearly as much to do with it so much as the judge&#8217;s rulings on preliminary motions about what evidence would be considered by the jury.</p>
<p>Point is, I think I did the right thing by letting my client pray the way she wanted to in a time she was feeling a lot of emotional stress, even though I did not share her belief.  I think a doctor should do something similar in an analagous situation.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/06/19/praying-in-the-hospital/comment-page-1/#comment-188246</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 20:41:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/06/19/praying-in-the-hospital/#comment-188246</guid>
		<description>I was recently in the hospital, and my doctor surprised me when he said that his whole church was praying for me.  It actually made me a bit scared, as it gave me the message that a highly trained doctor, a man of science, was praying to a supernatural being that I get better.  It blew away that illusion that he was the competent doctor, knew exactly what was wrong, and how to fix me.  It made me think, &quot;Is my condition so serious that not even a doctor can help me?&quot;  Fortunately, he didn&#039;t offer to pray with me then.

I think doctors should be aware of what religion (if any) their patients are, so that they can reduce the likelihood of offending and/or scaring them with the wrong comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was recently in the hospital, and my doctor surprised me when he said that his whole church was praying for me.  It actually made me a bit scared, as it gave me the message that a highly trained doctor, a man of science, was praying to a supernatural being that I get better.  It blew away that illusion that he was the competent doctor, knew exactly what was wrong, and how to fix me.  It made me think, &#8220;Is my condition so serious that not even a doctor can help me?&#8221;  Fortunately, he didn&#8217;t offer to pray with me then.</p>
<p>I think doctors should be aware of what religion (if any) their patients are, so that they can reduce the likelihood of offending and/or scaring them with the wrong comment.</p>
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