You got that one wrong. Everyone is born Christian.

http://www.fstdt.com/fundies/comments.aspx?q=15495

http://www.fstdt.com/fundies/comments.aspx?q=57323

TRiG.

I believe the only sin that should keep someone out of church membership is unrepentence.

The Bible calls failure to submit to governing authority sin. I’m guessing this would include speeding. How many million faithful church members are unrepentant speeders? You may consider this a petty, nit-picky example, but it’s important, because, frankly, where does God draw the line? What sins can be “fudged” in the repentance area (surely church elders do not hire private investigators to make sure you repent whenever you speed!) and what sins cannot?

I once had a Christian friend that said since we cannot avoid not sinning altogether, that we should focus our tendency to sin on the “lesser sins” to avoid committing “greater sins”. In other words, I apparently had a certain number of “sin points” that I couldn’t avoid using each day, so I should use them on things like drinking too much coffee and driving too fast to avoid masturbating and swearing. Is this a productive outlook?

But choice in not the determining factor in what constitutes sin. The declaration of God decides what is sin.

The whim of the almighty determines rightness. So tell me, does anything have any intrinsic good about it, or only insofar as God declares it so? Oh that’s right, this is a fallen world and everything in it is 100% evil. Nothing is right or wrong based on its social, economic, ecological or interpersonal value or its overall effect on the state of things, just based on whether an almighty 6-year-old is grossed out by it or not.

If your God decrees certain things sinful and hellworthy regardless of whether they’re a matter of choice, then your God a megalomanaical asshole for making humans incapable of NOT sinning and then punishing them for it. I’d welcome Hell just to be rid of him.

Way to sell your religion, buddy.

Who was that guy who used to hang out with the lepers and the prostitutes again? I totally forget his name.

Anyway, good thing Osteen or Warren decided to completely blow-off meeting with these total homos. Don’t want to meet with Christians who have different opinions from your one-true-faith. Plus, mustn’t fuck up their multi-million dollar book deals, doncha know?

I thought Jay Bakker had at least one ball, though. Tattooed, pierced, ex substance-abusing christians are one thing… gays are something else entirely, I guess.

I bet he sees the kind of bank that Osteen’s pulling down now, and wants a piece of it. Must be in the genes.

Damn, it’s been a long time since I’ve come upon someone as mentally-isolated as you are. For your own sake, man, put the Bible aside for a bit (it’s not going anywhere) and read something else, or better yet, go to where people are, people who are not like you, and start talking with them–don’t judge them; don’t preach at them; just have a conversation. And while you’re at it, try, if you can, to imagine how life is for them–no not the “they’re lost and blinded by the Devil and can’t see the Light” stuff–but just try to imagine what life would be like if you believed something else, or nothing at all. I know this is a scary proposition for you; it’s threatening, yes, but for goodness sake, have the guts to do it. Really, for your own sake.

You know what you really need? You need to hang out with gay people. That’s it. Instead of letting others do your thinking for you, you can decide for yourself if gays are as bad as you believe.

I’ve been where you are. It’s lonely and frustrating. When you’ve finally had enough, if you do, the world is a much nicer place.

I don’t make the rules.

We have to make the rules ourselves. It’s called being a responsible adult.

The declaration of God decides what is sin.

There is no God. Get that idea out of your head.

Who are you to say something is wrong?

No one. I don’t make the rules.

Are you going to tell me that “disapproval of certain acts and lifestyles” played no part in our history of violence against Africans, African-Americans, people of color, Native-Americans, Jews, women, outsiders, and gays?

I’m sure it did, but abuse of a doctrine does not make the doctrine wrong. It may be posisble to justify certain types of slavery scripturally, in principle at least, but I can pretty much guarantee that most if not all of those who tried to were not applying to themselves what the Bible has to say about masters – things along the lines of “treat them according to the knowledge that you yourself have a master in heaven”. And Paul even told one slave owner to treat his servant like a brother.

Many even knowingly admit (heterosexual) cohabiters, premarital fornicators, adulterers, and prostitutes as members, just so long as they aren’t gay. Please tell me you can see the hypocrisy here.

Of course I do… but I never said those people should be members. I believe the only sin that should keep someone out of church membership is unrepentence. Unrepentence in regard to whatever sins it might happen to be.

What I cannot respect is using words like “wrong” and “unrepentant” to describe an entire class of people. I’m sure you’ve heard by now, but just in case… being gay is not a choice, no matter what a 2000 year old holy text tells you.

I don’t think the Bible ever calls it a ‘choice’, and I didn’t either. But choice in not the determining factor in what constitutes sin. The declaration of God decides what is sin. I don’t ‘choose’ to be prideful or selfish, it’s my nature as sinful human being, but those things are still sins that I seek to kill. That I’m prone to them by nature is no excuse. Homosexuals don’t choose their inclinations – none of us do. But we are all born sinners with sinful inclinations, “dead in trespasses and sins”, the Bible says, and that’s why if we are going to be saved from condemnation we need a Savior.

What was the name of that guy who hung out with lepers and prostitutes? I forget his name now. Probably not relevant to this discussion of million-dollar-megachurches anyway.

Uh huh. Whoever that guy was, didn’t he also say something like “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” Didn’t this same fella catch a lot of flak from the religious types for hanging out with the wrong kind of people?

As for the megachurches, well, I think that guy also said this: “…I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” He also said “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.”

Oh, how I wish that Christians were like Christ. You know, in all fairness, they ought to have to change their title. They should at the very least change it to “pseudo-Christian,” but probably a change that didn’t include “Christ” would be the fairest way to go.

My staff has already told them that neither my wife nor I will meet with them for any discussion or debate.

Nothing cements the immorality of the megachurch more for me than how they act even toward people who share their faith. Osteen as well. Won’t EVEN MEET them. Jay Bakker should leave Lakewood… he always struck me as having more balls than this bullshit episode shows.

But DAMN, Saddleback sure has a fucking expensive church compound. Camels and eyes of needles and all that.

What was the name of that guy who hung out with lepers and prostitutes? I forget his name now. Probably not relevant to this discussion of million-dollar-megachurches anyway.

It appears there’s been a lot of misreporting on this event. For example, Rick Warren is not meeting with the Soulforce people. See today’s entry on GetReligion.com

Arnold is correct. I updated the post at the top.