So, I’m interested in why you feel this way…

You mean me?

That, unfortunately, is beyond the scope of this blog. Let’s just say that I’m the end result of my experiences, as are we all. As I just said to Mike – it’s a matter of perspective.

Have you ever read the book of Ecclesiastes?

Sure. In fact, I’m friendly with an Orthodox rabbi who made a similar observation the other day; said I was like the author. I agree, of course, with Kohelet (except for the disclaimer at the end!); it’s the only honest book in there!

I still see a lot of beauty and joy in life and I’d definitely say that on the whole existence is preferable to non-existence.

Well, it’s a matter of perspective. I think that, on the whole, Christian theology has been shaped by those who are existence-affirmating, as opposed to existence-negating. I said this here the other day; I once heard a Catholic priest say that it is better to exist than not to, and that eternity in hell is actually a gift from God in that one still gets to exist. Of course, he didn’t have the advantage of being able to ask someone there! (Christians tend to philosophize freely when someone else’s eternity is on the line!)

Please hear me, if life really does seem so bleak to you – I mean if this is your lived experience and not just a philosophical point that you’re making – then I really hope you’ll seek some sort of counseling, or just a community of friends that can help you discover some joy and meaning in life.

It is my lived experience, which is my point, actually – I’m aware of pretty much all of the theodicies the world’s faiths have been able to conjure, and I can see no way in which the enormity of the suffering of sentient beings isn’t Gods fault – if He exists. My point was that, although I agree with you that our faith in God’s existence shouldn’t really be important to him – unless He’s some sort of massive ego case, which really is how most Christians picture Him, although they’d never acknowledge it (they seem to be especially obsessed with the concept of His “honor”, for some reason – “God will not be mocked!”) – I can’t see any way in which being face to face with Him would change my mind. If He exists, He’s impotent, or psychotic, or a bastard, or all three.

Also – this presupposes that our individuality survives the death process intact. If we accept continuity of consciousness for the sake of discussion, the experience of mystics of all traditions – those who’ve supposedly had direct, unmediated experience of the Absolute – has always been that we aren’t who we think we are, that our individuality is illusory. So, who is it who is going to be “face to face” with God?

Re: counseling – been there. More useless than religion. Thanks for your concern, but I’ll be all right. I’m 51, and I’m still here. (Seriously, though – all that pastoral training, and that’s the best you can come up with – “See a shrink”?!)

I’ll say one more thing. Mike, you’re encountering me at the tail end of more than thirty years of meandering through the world’s religions. Without going into it in detail, I went looking for God. I didn’t find him. It wasn’t a purely academic exercise; I was engaged in a “quest for meaning” (I never know how to describe it in a way that doesn’t sound clichéd). I think I can trust you not to pull the typical Christian rationalizations on me (you didn’t really want to believe, you didn’t see what was right in front of you, etc.), so I’ll ask you this – if He exists, if we are as precious to Him as you people are always saying we are, why did I walk away empty-handed? You believe that Christianity represents His fullest revelation to us. Why didn’t I get it? If it can’t save one eager, seeking individual (and a Jew, no less – one of His chosen people!) who searched earnestly and wanted desperately to believe – what good is it?

cipher, quite apart from any debate about theism or atheism or anything else, can I just say that I’m honestly concerned for you

I find myself agreeing with Mike here (shocker!). After all, Cipher, you’re free to get whatever meaning out life (or lack of) that you want. You’re a grown, er, person, and I don’t necessarily think your way of thinking is unhealthy.

Still, I do find this to be an interesting topic. After moving from my christian faith of many years to just now really embracing my atheism, I’ve struggled with finding new “meaning”, and I must say that I’m beginning to come across it, most of it in the every day sense (the joy of wrestling with my two small children, great conversation with my wife and friends, satisfaction in my work, happiness in service to fellow human beings whenver I can offer it, etc.), as opposed to the “grand scheme” sense. So, I’m interested in why you feel this way…

I’m personally not expecting an aferlife. If I were dead, and then found out I wasn’t dead, it could very easily be a life-changing experience for me (if you know what I mean). So what kind of person I would be at that point could be very much different from the kind of person I had been before I died. Could it be the case that how I would experience this “same place/reality experienced differently” in my after-death life might have very little to do with what kind of person I had been in my before-death life?

What about the possibility that how one would experience the “same place/reality experienced differently” in the afterlife could change over time, so that a given individual might experience it as both Heaven and Hell at different times?

Yes, those are all possibilities that I have heard various Christians theologians and others discuss. Ultimately the Bible just doesn’t talk that much about what happens after we die, so we don’t have a lot to go on, and there are a lot of possibilities. Which is why I come back to what I’ve said repeatedly, which is that the main point of the Christian gospel is not about what happens when we die, but about the present reality of the kingdom of God in the here and now.

Also, I don’t think it’s actually a matter of sending people anywhere. As I’ve said before, I follow the ancient Eastern Orthodox belief that Heaven and Hell are not two separate places or realities, but simply the same place/reality experienced differently. Love is given freely to all, but for some who incapable of receiving or returning it, this love will feel like torment. So yes, IMHO it comes down to whether you have become that kind of person or not.

I’m personally not expecting an aferlife. If I were dead, and then found out I wasn’t dead, it could very easily be a life-changing experience for me (if you know what I mean). So what kind of person I would be at that point could be very much different from the kind of person I had been before I died. Could it be the case that how I would experience this “same place/reality experienced differently” in my after-death life might have very little to do with what kind of person I had been in my before-death life?

What about the possibility that how one would experience the “same place/reality experienced differently” in the afterlife could change over time, so that a given individual might experience it as both Heaven and Hell at different times? Or are you assuming that, in the afterlife, all our personalities will become, as it were frozen in time?

If there really is an afterlife, I guess we’ll all only find out whether it’s like what you think it’s like in the “sooner or later”, eh?

if I were a Christian, in the manner of 99% of Christians who have ever lived, I’d probably have to say that you aren’t a Christian. And I mean this as a compliment.

LOL. Thanks.

As I’ve told you, I’m not like most atheists – I don’t find inherent beauty or meaning in life. I find it appalling, and, if He exists, I see no way in which it cannot be His fault.

cipher, quite apart from any debate about theism or atheism or anything else, can I just say that I’m honestly concerned for you. I am a pretty melancholic and cynical personality myself and I can certainly identify with the kind of existential angst you’ve described here and before (I think you’d be surprised at how many Christians could also relate. Have you ever read the book of Ecclesiastes?), but I still see a lot of beauty and joy in life and I’d definitely say that on the whole existence is preferable to non-existence. Please hear me, if life really does seem so bleak to you – I mean if this is your lived experience and not just a philosophical point that you’re making – then I really hope you’ll seek some sort of counseling, or just a community of friends that can help you discover some joy and meaning in life.

“He’s just not using that as the basis for judging where to send people after they die.”

And, if I understand you correctly, God will make that judgment based on what kind of person I am after I’m dead?

In a manner of speaking, yes; though I don’t look at it so much as a legal sentence (the courtroom metaphor doesn’t do much for me) as simply the natural consequences of who we’ve become.

Also, I don’t think it’s actually a matter of sending people anywhere. As I’ve said before, I follow the ancient Eastern Orthodox belief that Heaven and Hell are not two separate places or realities, but simply the same place/reality experienced differently. Love is given freely to all, but for some who incapable of receiving or returning it, this love will feel like torment. So yes, IMHO it comes down to whether you have become that kind of person or not.

Perhaps you meant to say, “If God exists, you’re going to find out eventually that he does.”

Yes, that is what I meant. Obviously I was speaking from the perspective of my own beliefs.

you’re going to find out eventually whether or not God exist

How do you know? Even if God exists, that does not mean heaven exists or that we will continue to exist after death. The existence of God does not automatically mean that there is an afterlife for humans.

you’re going to find out eventually whether or not God exists, so I don’t see why God would make such a big deal about whether or not you believe it now. Again, I think God is more concerned about how you live and what kind of person you are becoming than with which religion or non-religion you choose.

And to be clear, I did NOT mean that you’d be “sorted out” about going to heaven or hell. What I meant is that I don’t think intellectual beliefs about God’s existence or non-existence is the criterion on which a decision like that would be made in the first place since we’re all going to “believe” eventually anyway.

Mike I’ve been trying to get this point across to Christians since I was younger than you. I’ve never had any success. It ALWAYS comes down to “faith” and “free will” – two concepts they rarely understand, and are invariably ill-prepared to defend – but that never seems to stop them!

I can’t tell you how refreshing it is to hear a self-defined Christian, let alone one with evangelical leanings, make such a statement. However, it confirms my suspicion that you really are beyond the pale of 2,000 years of Christianity orthodoxy. I said the other day that I’d be shocked to find that a significant number of pre-modern Christians, even scholars, would be willing to extend salvation to an atheist and a Jew. You disagreed, so I let it pass. However, I can’t begin to imagine that any but a handful of heterodox Christians (the Universalists, for example) would accept the idea that God wouldn’t make a “big deal” out of whether or not we believe in him, because “we’ll find out eventually anyway”.

Someone asked me a few weeks ago if I was saying that you aren’t really a Christian. I replied that I don’t play for the team, so it isn’t up to me to say who does or doesn’t get to wear the jacket. I still won’t say it, but, I will say this – if I were a Christian, in the manner of 99% of Christians who have ever lived, I’d probably have to say that you aren’t a Christian. And I mean this as a compliment.

Mike, if you’re right, and I were to find myself face to face with God, I can’t see what difference it would make in my “beliefs” about him. As I’ve told you, I’m not like most atheists – I don’t find inherent beauty or meaning in life. I find it appalling, and, if He exists, I see no way in which it cannot be His fault. Theists like to think that, in the end, God is going to enable them to see the “big picture”, from His perspective. I think that’s nonsense. I can’t even conceptualize a scenario in which anything He could possibly tell me would make palatable 10,000 years of human misery. An eternity of bliss wouldn’t make up for it – not from my perspective, in any case. There is simply nothing, no jigsaw piece that he can offer me that will enable me to say, “Oh! NOW I get it!”

You can see why I find dialogue with most Christians impossible. Also, I’ve become so bitter and self-enclosed that I am probably an example of the sort of person who, by your (admittedly liberal) standards, does eventually end up in hell.