The God I don’t believe surely would not give a damn whether I worshipped him or not.

Thanks

Chris V
Pres
Atheist Humanist Society of CT and RI

You mean,……pro wrestling isn’t real?

Well, never mind, I’ll have to deal with that disillusionment later. I hear what you’re saying and perhaps I overstated Davis’s “sins” insofar as she didn’t actually introduce a bill on the floor of the state legislature wanting to make into law the things she said, but I certainly won’t dismiss it away as just the effect of a personal upset, either. Do I expect a very high standard from elected officials? Damn right I do. We have let them slide and let them slide for so long that even convicted crooks get re-elected only because their constituents are saying, “aw, that aint so bad.” Our standards have become so lax the politicians we have now are people who can’t do very well in anything else. You said,

“She actually *did* nothing but act foolishly and demonstrate an appalling mindset of intolerance and ignorance of history.”

Uh huh, and that appalling mindset is enough for her to deserve to lose the next election. I’m tired of having to put up with a choice between an incompetent and a demagogue, or between a good ol’ boy and a preppy. We have the lousy government we deserve because we have not been demanding enough.

There are some cultures that assume that drunkenness makes people say false things, so when after having too many glasses of punch at an office party a clerk chews out his boss, no one takes it seriously. In other cultures people think “in vino veritas,” that drunkenness reveals what a person truly feels inside. In those cultures the hung-over clerk meekly picks up his pink slip the next morning.

In the U.S. people have similar differing attitudes about what stress does to people’s behavior. Should we completely ignore Davis’ remarks as not at all reflective of her personal character and professional ethics, because somehow her distress made her say things she doesn’t think or feel at all? Or should we think that under stress she revealed her true colors? I tend toward the “in vino veritas” side.

I think you are correct that a theocracy isn’t going to overthrow the tattered, dented democracy we still enjoy. A sudden revolution isn’t how it would happen. It will be prevented by believers and non believers who keep up their resistance to the little erosions of our civil liberties that are attempted somewhere in this country almost every day. You said it yourself,

If you went back through the utterances, voting records and actions of every elected representative in the US, you’ll find the same type of–or worse–examples.

Yeah, and I’m sick of it. Aren’t you? That crap should never be acceptable. Every one of them should be kicked out. If eternal vigilance is the price of liberty then please forgive me if you think I’m over-vigilant, because I am wanting to protect your liberty as well.

KenWritez, I think you and I have far more in common than differences and that we can be allies in preserving the freedoms we can so easily take for granted. You remind me to wipe the foam off my chin when someone like Davis screws up, and I’ll remind you that if you snooze you lose. Together we may find a balance.

How do you know for sure that pro wrestling isn’t real?

Thanks for your thought-out comments. AIUI, Rep. Davis was upset at the time of her outburst over the death of a student. We’ve all said and done stupid things under stress–this was her turn. To label her attack on Mr. Sherman as “betrayal of trust and the misuse of power” goes too far. I think you’re holding her to an over-exact adherence to Illinois and US Constitutions. She actually *did* nothing but act foolishly and demonstrate an appalling mindset of intolerance and ignorance of history.

If you went back through the utterances, voting records and actions of every elected representative in the US, you’ll find the same type of–or worse–examples.

Please hear me: I’m not excusing what she said. I’m saying her comments were an embarassment to her, to the Illinois State Senate, to Christians everywhere. But that’s all they were: Her embarassment. She dropped her pants in front of everyone, whether she knows it or not. (I suspect the state Senate leaders had an interesting telephone call with her.)

“KenWritez, you seem to make fun of the concern that some extremist Christians want to subvert the U.S. Government into a theocracy.”

Yes, I do want to make fun of it. I want to mock the hell out of this idea, because it is mockable. And for the same reason I want to mock anarchists who want to dismantle government, liberals who passionately declare “All business is bad!”, all male chauvinists who see women as nothing more than a handy vagina and beer-fetching device, and people who think “pro” wrestling is real.

Oh, I’m not saying there’s no chance the US could become a theocracy, but the necessary cultural change the body politic would have to undergo requires centuries worth of deep social and cultural change. It didn’t happen under Pres. Bush and it won’t happen in our lifetimes or that of our children or even our grandchildren.

As for the separation of church and state? I like it. God bless it! LOL….

If you atheists promise not to hold Rep. Davis as representative of all Christians, I promise not to hold wingnuts like the guy trying to declare as illegal the celebration of Christmas as representative of all atheists.

That’s a fair enough proposition. I agree in principle that the wingnuts of any group should not be used to represent the entire group. However the problem here is not about unfair stereotyping of a group, it’s about the betrayal of trust and the misuse of power.

Representative Davis and the nameless atheist you mentioned are not on equal status. Davis holds a position of power and influence that was given to her as a public trust. The “atheist wingnut” will probably never have such a standing. Davis, like almost all politicians gained her position in a large part because her constituency approves of her religious views, but she owes her allegiance to her entire district’s populace, not just those who share her religion. As a State Representative she took an oath to uphold the Illinois Constitution and that eloquent document includes this: (emphasis mine)

SECTION 3. RELIGIOUS FREEDOM
The free exercise and enjoyment of religious profession and worship, without discrimination, shall forever be guaranteed, and no person shall be denied any civil or political right, privilege or capacity, on account of his religious opinions; but the liberty of conscience hereby secured shall not be construed to dispense with oaths or affirmations, excuse acts of licentiousness, or justify practices inconsistent with the peace or safety of the State. No person shall be required to attend or support any ministry or place of worship against his consent, nor shall any preference be given by law to any religious denomination or mode of worship.

Davis’ tirade strongly indicates that she does not take this part of her State Constitution seriously. She demonstrates that she wants to favor those with whom she agrees in religious beliefs, and wants to deny or minimize the civil rights of those who do not share her beliefs. That is a betrayal of her oath and an abuse of the power that was entrusted to her. Sadly, Davis is not at all alone in her behavior. Many public officials do this kind of thing and far worse. It is in everyone’s interest, including Christians, to oppose them in the strongest terms.

KenWritez, you seem to make fun of the concern that some extremist Christians want to subvert the U.S. Government into a theocracy. While that may be laughable to you, please remember that “Oh, that could never happen here” is the epitaph that has been carved on the gravestones of civil liberties throughout history. For us to stand idly by and think that Davis and her colleagues are harmless would be a grave mistake.

I will agree to your proposal that we mutually refrain from stereotyping Christians in general and atheists in general. In addition I propose to you that you and your Christian friends work together with me and my atheist friends to protect the separation of church and state that keeps all of us able to think and worship as we see fit.