I think you left out a step in their argument: “I was self-destructive, faith in God helped me get better after all my other efforts had failed, therefore God exists.”

I suppose so, but I still don’t buy it. Your pain is your problem.

(I mean in general. I am not directing anger at Mr Clawson in particular.)

There are Xians who try to convert people by saying that Jesus helped them kick drugs. This is given as a reason for us to believe. “I was self-destructive, therefore God exists”.

I think you left out a step in their argument: “I was self-destructive, faith in God helped me get better after all my other efforts had failed, therefore God exists.”

Though to be completely fair, I’ve heard many testimonies like this and most of the time the point wasn’t really to “prove” anything or convert anyone. They were just honestly relating their experiences. Of course, your experiences may differ.

Here is another attempt:
There are Xians who try to convert people by saying that Jesus helped them kick drugs. This is given as a reason for us to believe. “I was self-destructive, therefore God exists”. I think it is a non-sequitur. If you are self-destructive, it does not prove your religion. It just proves you are stupid.

Alcohol does not sprout legs and jump down your throat. You have to put it there.

Regarding my “divorced addict” comment:

My male biological parent is a boozer. Maybe he still is, I do not know because I do not have any contact. (My choice. I know “male biological parent” is a mouthful; it is an intentional word choice.) I started writing a response clarifying my comment, and it became a rant. Perhaps I will clarify some other time.

What I don’t understand is why your faith – which is based on very questionable (by your own admission) “revealed wisdom” written down in one book – takes precedence over the evidence of the universe itself.

I can see ending up a pantheist or a Deist. Christianity just doesn’t make any sense on the face of it.

The divorced addicts are the worst.

And wondering what exactly you mean by that.

I had learned that doubt and uncertainty were an unavoidable part of the human condition, and that questioning my faith was actually a good thing.

And

I de-converted from the faith of my youth, from the kind of faith that was locked into one narrow set of answers – that didn’t allow room for questions and doubts – and from the kind of faith that said the most important thing was believing exactly the right set of doctrines rather than how we actually lived in the world.

And from this thread:

While that sounds good in theory, in my experience “truth” rarely conforms so easily to such nice, neat little boxes.

You don’t sound like most Christians. You seem to be aware that not everybody thinks like you. A lot of Christians think that I should believe just because they believe. The divorced addicts are the worst. I think the world (and the USA) would be more pleasant if there were more Christians like you.

I’d say you really need to read the first book to get the broader context of the conversation and the journey for his characters up to that point.

Very valid point.

I too got annoyed at how “amazed” and “wowed” some of those skeptics were at Neo’s explanations.

I’m glad it wasn’t just me.