I almost forgot to reply to this one. Let me just clarify what I meant. I am aware of the meaning of the term genocide. I was just suggesting that perhaps it is just as bad when we think a group of people (i.e. a country, culture, religion, or even a class of people) are less important than us and/or not worthy of attention. I think the feelings of self-importance and superiority go right along with the act.

From another angle, when we see millions of children starving all over the world but are more interested in politics and oil, isn’t that in fact a form of genocide?

Actually, it isn’t – mass killings are not the same as genocide. It’s reprehensible, but it isn’t genocide unless it’s deliberate, systematic, and targeted at a specific group.

However, I don’t know if the words in the Bible speak gloriously about genocide.

It’s described in more than a few places (such as the bit from Joshua above mentioned by Siamang), and it’s apparently considered as right and proper since god ordered it. I can’t answer to the word ‘gloriously’ either, since I find the prose more lackluster than stirring, but what is there is bad enough to be going on with.

I will stand against the moral failures of the Bible. If it means I burn in hell for saying I abhor genocide, then so be it. If all I believe is wrong, and the monster of the Old Testament really exists, then I’ll spit in it’s eye and burn before I harm innocents for being the “wrong” race. I will not buy my own way into heaven by sating the bloodlust of a bronze-age war god.

I like you. Let’s be friends!

You speak as though religion is the only evil in this picture. But I’m beginning to think that religion is not the enemy… human nature is.

Bullseye; at least, I think so. I don’t believe religion itself is inherently evil; there are things one can learn from it that are basically “true,” and there are things one hears about in connection with it that are horrible and disturbing. But the point is, there are both religious and nonreligious folks who can do good and who can do evil, but evil people choose to do evil things regardless of what religion they follow (or don’t follow).

I find that a lot of religious folks have a sort of trust in their religion because of something they feel they’ve gotten from it, be it a life lesson or a pick-me-up in a hard time, or some other thing. Some people — Pat Robertson, George Bush, Rod Parsely and Creflo Dollar, to name a few — choose to betray this trust and use religion as a means to acquire money or political benefits. I think this is despicable and inexcusable, just as I would think so if some famous atheist person were to go on TV and do what Pat Robertson is doing for (or should I say, “to”) Christians right now.

I’m probably making a bigger issue out of this than it needs to be, but I kind of like words. Can you tell?

Yes, I can. You are a gifted writer. I love your “words.” I would love to hear from your perspective more often on these threads.

If we change the way we talk about things, we change the way we think about them.

I agree completely and wholeheartedly!!! I think it applies to everything in life, not just this one issue. Thank you for that wisdom!

I completely agree with how you feel about genocide, and I, too, will not kill another human being if Jesus himself stood in front of me and ordered me to do so. That’s oxymoronic (is that a word?) anyway. The only time I could see myself committing such an act is if someone tried to hurt my children. Then my killer instincts usually come out. I still don’t know if it could be “justified” in God’s eyes, though. So where is this God who could order genocide? I don’t know if your Joshua Challenge is a fair one. I’m extremely curious to see what Daniel’s answer is.

However, your religious text not only doesn’t instruct against this great evil, but it actually speaks gloriously about it.

I was a little bit offended by this statement. I understand what you’re saying, and I’ve always held the position of hating religion to the point of being called “not a real Christian.” However, I don’t know if the words in the Bible speak gloriously about genocide. If that’s what you read and/or the message you got, then I would have to venture to guess that Christians are not the only ones who interpret the scripture any way they see fit.

You actually SUPPORTED this view… which is to say you think it’s morally correct to kill if you believe your God wants you to.

When do we get to shed this idea of God as a singular judge-like spiritual “being” who sits above and orders people around… and judge them as to who’s worthy and who’s not?

You are right, Siamang. People to horrific things to other people. Many times, they use God as their justification for doing so. They also use Democracy and Freedom as valid justifications. How about Revenge?

When you drop an atomic bomb on a city full of innocent people, does that count as genocide? When you hear comments like “we should just blow that country off of the face of the map,” are they not the comments that come from the mindset of seeing some people as less worthy than us? I’ve heard many non-religious people making such remarks.

From another angle, when we see millions of children starving all over the world but are more interested in politics and oil, isn’t that in fact a form of genocide? When you stand by and watch someone die when you could clearly do something about it, can you count that as an evil act? If we act in self-interest, self-glorification, and self-preservation, is that evil? If we are willing to do anything as long as it doesn’t affect our own comfort, is that a worthy effort? If our indifference kills innocent people, are we not assisting in those murders?

I’m not pointing out right and wrong here. I’m just trying to understand why we do what we do.

You speak as though religion is the only evil in this picture. But I’m beginning to think that religion is not the enemy… human nature is.

(And please go easy on me in your rebuttal. I always feel like I’m walking out in front of a firing squad whenever I want to think out loud.)

I don’t usually give out my email. But if you want to discuss it carefully, feel free to start a thread on the discussion board… that way we can be sure it doesn’t scroll off the page.

The reason I’m pressing you on this should be quite clear… as a human being, I have a vested interest in dissuading genocide. As a person with friends or family of just about every race, I have something to lose by genocide… loved ones.

However, your religious text not only doesn’t instruct against this great evil, but it actually speaks gloriously about it. You actually SUPPORTED this view… which is to say you think it’s morally correct to kill if you believe your God wants you to.

I find this to be unconscionable, unthinkable and I cannot imagine anything more reprehensible and devaluing of human life. It is a brutal story from a time when human life was cheap and disposable. If it is a moral instructor, it is best used as a guide as to how not to behave. I find it quite stunning that you not only don’t recoil with horror at this, but you actively support such a notion.

Is this the religion we are meant to embrace for eternal life? Are we supposed to quiet our moral outrage when reading these horrors that I would expect more from a Stephan King novel than by the moral guide to the human race written by a perfect being? No!

If you were to read me the story of the Amorites, sorry, but my sympathy goes to the Amorites. If I was faced with the Joshua Challenge I would NOT perform genocide. Furthermore, if it meant eternal hell for me, I would NOT perform genocide. If it means eternal hell for me now, I will NOT support genocide, I will not apologize for the doctrine of religiously motivated genocide.

I will stand against the moral failures of the Bible. If it means I burn in hell for saying I abhor genocide, then so be it. If all I believe is wrong, and the monster of the Old Testament really exists, then I’ll spit in it’s eye and burn before I harm innocents for being the “wrong” race. I will not buy my own way into heaven by sating the bloodlust of a bronze-age war god.

Murder is the intentional killing of a human without valid grounds. By “valid” I have in mind things like just war, capital punishment, self-defense, etc…. any of which, admittedly, are debatable.

By your own definition, many atheists would agree that it is wrong to kill without a valid reason. You’ve just defined “murder” to be morally unjustifiable killing, so of course it can never be justified. It’s tautological and you don’t need a god for that.

The issue is definitely in deciding what constitutes a justification. You’d said that this could be “universally” and “objectively” wrong, yet now you say that these are up for debate. If it was universal and objective, there would be no debate.

So, which is it? And where does a belief in God come into play?

Maybe I didn’t ask the right thing… Let me try again. You were saying that we would not have any morals without God. You were using murder as an example of immorality; and that without morals, murder would not be wrong. Correct?

You stated above that

Atheists might abstain from murder for all kinds of social and conscience-based and practical reasons, but they cannot give any coherent and consistent account of how murder could be, purely and simply, objectively, and universally wrong

So are you saying that an atheist does not murder because of various conscience-based and logical reasons, and the only reason a Christian does not commit murder is because they were instructed not to? Do I understand you correctly?

Without the Christian God I don’t believe we’d be hear at all. But for the sake of argument, if we were, I have no idea if we’d be killing each other left and right. I don’t think I’d have much of a desire to kill everyone I saw, and I doubt most other people would either. I don’t see how this question is relevant. I’m not talking about what people do or would or wouldn’t do, I’m talking about the basis of morals.

You said,

‘m not assuming that any old god exists, I’m assuming the Christian God exists and that He has spoken authoritatively in His word – which condemns murder.

So in your opinion, would that be the only reason why murder is wrong? Are you saying that without knowing the Christian God, we would all be killing each other left and right? Isn’t it possible that perhaps humans (and all living things, for that matter) are instinctively wired to love life and hate death?