Couldn’t some Christians, including members of this silent majority, upon noticing that the Creation museum has the world laughing at American Christians, finally decide that this has gone too far, and undertake the cause of changing the minds of their friends and family?

Have been doing that for over a decade now.

It seems to me that all of our atheist handwringing about how we must always be careful to state “hey, you can be a theistic evolutionist… evolution isn’t a threat to religion” isn’t going to have the effect we’d like…coming from ATHEISTS! Only Christians can make that statement.

Actually, I think it could be quite effective for an atheist to say in a debate with a creationist “Look, I’m not attacking your religious beliefs. I’m supporting science, but science and faith don’t have to conflict. I believe in evolution because I believe the evidence shows it to be true, not because I’m trying to disprove your faith.”

I think this would go quite a long way actually, because a lot of Creationists I know have this paranoid belief that evolutionary theory was actually deliberately created as an attack on Christianity. They think that the prmiary goal of evolutionary scientists really is to destroy faith. If you can convince them that you’re not their enemy, and that all you’re after is the truth, then that will diffuse a lot of animosity and perhaps help open some minds.

And here’s the thing, that’s a message that is going to be better coming from you as an atheist. I can tell my Creationist friends “Listen, evolutionists are not out to get you or your faith. They are just trying to be honest to what they see as the truth.” But it’s going to be more convincing if they hear it straight from the source.

Mike C., what about a discussion about Darwin Day and how churches respond or do not respond to this event? Is science education something that Christians should think about or prioritize? Should differing viewpoints be reflected in church? Is there a way to reconcile the bible and evolution?

Well, like I said Karen, I think all of those conversations are worthwhile, but are going to be more effective as one-on-one discussions – and are ones that we’ve already been having for some time now. It’s just a question of goals – am I just trying to make a statement or actually change minds? I think celebrating Darwin Day formally would likely only achieve the former and not the latter.

Anyway, I want to make it clear that I’m not doing nothing on the issue. I’m just doing something different.

I think you could do it in a way that would be non-threatening to the creationists in your midst, and could lead to a lot of various opinions, ranging from “why should we bother with science in church?” to “what a great idea!” to “Darwin was an evil atheist but at least he converted to Christianity on his deathbed!”

Yes, you have many other things to talk about, but you also have (I assume, given the month vacation that many pastors take, plus holidays) at least 40 other Sundays to bring those topics up – and only one where Darwin gets some priority in churches around the country.

I only have anecdotal evidence, but, for example, a while back I was included in a PBS documentary about Evolution, and the final episode was about the religious debate. One part featured a school district where the students were pushing to have ID included in the classroom, and several of the pro-evolution teachers who were resisting this noted that they too were Christians, they just didn’t think those beliefs ought to be taught in a science classroom.

Maybe I shouldn’t jump to a conclusion, but I’ll bet dollars to donuts that they DIDN’T mention the beliefs of certain OTHER pro-evolution teachers, did they? Always when a pro-evolution show talks about evolution, they find the christian professor who says “and hey, i’m a CHRISTIAN!”. They NEVER EVER EVER say “of the 12 biology teachers in the district, 9 are Christians and three are atheists!” Nope. It’s 9 Christians, who are the majority!… did we mention the Christians?!!!!

I know that there are some terrific people out there working on this, Ken Miller being one of them… and even he comes out and talks about his belief in God..you know he’s got to speak shibbolleth and give all of his christian props (though he’s a Catholic, which you can almost hear a collective groan among the lobbyists, dang, so CLOSE!) I mean, there’s absolutely no REASON I should know the religious beliefs of Ken Miller. They have no bearing on the science or the evidence involved, or his writing of the textbook that was challenged as being “laced with darwinism” at Dover…. except that it’s vital to this stupid argument over whether we should teach 19th century science or 21st century science in biology class.

Listen, I’m just putting forward a counter proposal to see if people like the idea. It seems to me that all of our atheist handwringing about how we must always be careful to state “hey, you can be a theistic evolutionist… evolution isn’t a threat to religion” isn’t going to have the effect we’d like…coming from ATHEISTS! Only Christians can make that statement.

Maybe we stop trying to make that statement and leave it to the Christians to square their beliefs with science. It’s not our job to do that.

Here’s a hypothetical Mike, If I insult you, and say “Christianity is anti-science, christians stick their heads in the sand or worse when it comes to modern biology. Christianity is a haven for people who wish science hadn’t progressed since at least Ptolemy…” will you

A: think Siamang is a jerk and start to embrace Creationism.
B: think Siamang is a jerk, but that doesn’t change what you think about the evidence for evolution.

Sorry Siamang, but I reject the premise that you have to be a jerk about it at all. I understand that you can’t personally make the argument to other Christians about how their faith isn’t necessarily opposed to evolution, but you can acknowledge this with other Christians such as myself who can, and join in common cause together with us.

I don’t know if there’s any way of proving this one way or the other, but I think it’s just wrong to assume that all the people going to bat against the ID folks in this debate have been atheists. I think you’re just as likely to find progressive Christians engaged in the debate too. I only have anecdotal evidence, but, for example, a while back I was included in a PBS documentary about Evolution, and the final episode was about the religious debate. One part featured a school district where the students were pushing to have ID included in the classroom, and several of the pro-evolution teachers who were resisting this noted that they too were Christians, they just didn’t think those beliefs ought to be taught in a science classroom. This would be just one example of the kind of thing I’m talking about.

The other part of the episode featured my conservative evangelical school, Wheaton College, and several of my science profs, all of whom are theistic evolutionists. In fact my profs’ big complaint after the documentary came out was that PBS had painted it as if Wheaton used to be strictly creationist and only recently became open to evolutionary viewpoints, whereas in reality theistic evolution has long been accepted there. These profs of mine would be another example of how even conservative Christians are engaged in the process of helping promote evolutionary science among fellow Christians.

I call this the “ignore it and maybe it’ll go away” strategy. As Dr. Phil might ask “how’s that been working for you so far?”

I’m not saying we should ignore the debate itself. I just don’t see why I or other theistic evolutionists ought to give more publicity to the Creation Museum. If it comes up, then I’ll say something, but I’m not going to around telling other Christians about it. As I’ve said, I have several creationists in my congregation, (not to mention my extended family and my blog readers) and if I made a big deal about it to them, they’d probably actually be more likely to go see it.

Mike C., I think it would be wonderful if your church did something to commemorate Darwin Day. Do you have any plans to do so?

I’m not sure. I’ve been thinking about it, but it’s complicated. There are a number of considerations:

1) I don’t preach sermons, I lead discussions. So I could bring up evolution, but it wouldn’t just be a one-sided endorsement. I’d have to let the creationists in our church contribute to the conversation too. This could be a good thing overall, but as the pastor I have to be very careful about not abusing my authority and just imposing my views when it comes to controversial topics like this. My goal is NOT to just tell my congregation what to believe, but to lead them in a process of learning how to think about their beliefs for themselves. I’m working for transformation, not domination.

2) That being the case, I need to be strategic about how I approach the issue with the creationists in my church. Out of 20 of us, there are probably 3 or 4 creationists left, and if I brought it up in this group discussion context they might feel ganged up on and get defensive. I’m not sure that would really produce the transformation I’m hoping for. I think a more effective strategy might be one-on-one conversations with these people, and in fact, that’s exactly what I’ve done over the past few years. I’ve had conversations, passed books along, engaged in email dialogues, and then given them the space to process it all for themselves. As a result several have changed their minds, a few are more agnostic about it than they were before, and the few remaining creationists have relegated it to the category of “non-essential” beliefs and agreed to disagree. So all that to say that I’m not sure what good bringing it up again in a group context would do for the process I’ve been engaged in with these folks.

3) I also have to “pick my battles” so to speak. I’m not saying this issue is unimportant, but so is Fair Trade, and environmentalism, and Darfur, and debt relief, and global slavery, and gender equality, and war, and consumerism, and immigration, etc… I’m attempting to awaken people and change minds on all of these issues. I’m taking fairly conservative people here, some of whom have never voted Democratic in their lives, and trying to get them to totally reorient their worldview and their assumptions about what their faith is all about, and I can’t afford to move too quickly or push them on too many things all at once. And quite honestly, science education ranks somewhat below quite a few others on this list in order of priority for me. So again, it’s a strategic thing.

Anyhow, it’s not that I haven’t engaged with my community about this issue. I’m just trying to do it in ways that I think will be more effective in the long run than a “Darwin Day” service. I’m sorry if this was more information than you were looking for. I just wanted to give you a picture of how complicated the process of “spiritual formation” can be at times.

What Are You Doing for Darwin Day?

This:

Freethinking residents from New York state are invited to attend the first ever IHS Legislative Advocacy Day. The all day event will occur in Albany on Tuesday, Feb. 12, 2008 which is also Darwin Day (an international celebration of Charles Darwin’s birthday).

Throughout the day, groups of freethinking New Yorkers will meet elected state officials to advocate in favor of: the expansion of stem-cell research; comprehensive sex education; same-sex marriage rights; and the separation of religion and government. If the passage of the so-called NYS “Religious Freedom Restoration Act” is still pending, participants will explain why this is bill is potentially very dangerous for putting religion above the law and discriminating against the nonreligious…

As an evangelical I was well aware of creationism, Hugh Ross, the ICR, Ken Ham and all his compadres. I never went to their seminars, but I heard about them and read pamphlets that were handed out at church about their “good work” battling atheistic science. PZ Myers was recently featured on a Christian radio station debate and I noticed they were sponsoring a trip to the creationism museum for their listeners. So I hardly think that stuff is under the radar, at least for evangelicals and fundamentalists.

Mike C., I think it would be wonderful if your church did something to commemorate Darwin Day. Do you have any plans to do so?