Good point. And it seems that switch to patriarchal society also played an important role.

Organized religion, with a set priesthood, is definitely an agricultural by-product. I think that the cruelty and inhumanity is an off shoot of the religion. After-all, it is the priests who first kept up the records and stores of surplus. The also were the driving force behind establishing the belief in “some trait which one society has and considers it part of being human” or at least the punishing the lack thereof.

For what its worth this is a coming warning… i have my own blog and lots of other priorities, i will slow down the response time here soon. Just a heads up. I don’t want anyone thinking i am copping out, and i will continue to come back and discuss, but after another day or two not as often.

Jared, you’ve been a trooper and though we obviously disagree on the essentials, I thank you for taking the time to participate here.

What I hope you take away from the experience is some glimmering that maybe you need to do more research and investigation into a number of areas before you are responsible for teaching others about life and being looked up to as an authority figure in the community.

For instance, as Claire said, your knowledge of science and the scientific method seems to be pretty much nonexistent. Much as you’d rather concentrate on philosophy and theology, science is an incredibly important thing to know about. To teach children bad science not only undermines their educations and their potential as adults, but it also is profoundly dangerous to us as a society. Look at our students’ test scores in the sciences and that will become obvious. Please, please do not influence children away from the importance of real science and the scientific method. Learn about it yourself, learn to value it, understand that it need not be in direct conflict with your religious beliefs. I cannot overemphasize this.

Also, you need to do some research on religious history and read some opinions from non-conservative biblical scholars. Josephus’s Testimonium, for instance, is widely considered to be fraudulent . For goodness sakes, don’t take Wikipedia’s word on it: Do your own research, follow the information where it takes you, think for yourself, and reach your own conclusions.

Just make sure that those conclusions are backed up by good information from all sides of these arguments, and hold them lightly, rather than as ultimatums. This will make you a good scholar, a good pastor, a good person. Good luck to you.

I’m reading a book “Anatomy of human destructivity” by Erich Fromm, which deals exactly with the issue of human brutality, sadism and origins of cruelty, war and other common destructive (aka “evil”) behavior. His anthorpology and etology research suggests that this kind of behavior war extremely rare until first civilizations – city states – began to emerge. So the two things that enabled this was agriculture and using surpluses as capital, which enabled further development of the community/state. In this period, wars and slavery became common. According to Fromm, culture and habits play so big role in forming human that lack of some trait which one society has and considers it part of being human, lack of the trait usually means that other cultures are not humans and don’t deserve to be treated like humans, essentially givingg them right to kill or enslave them.

This makes me think of the popularity of hero stories in our culture (and in every culture) we value heroes because they do what we understand to be right. They are willing to sacrifice themselves for a greater good and we somehow see this as noble

I agree, Jared. We want a powerful hero who works for good to come and save society. A man or woman who avoids temptation and can cheat death to save all of us is a beautiful thought and I wish it were true. Unfortunately because something sounds great and we wish for it does not make it true.

He demands worship and singular adoration.

Why does God need to be worshiped? How can an all knowing, all powerful being have a self esteem problem?

Jared: “…and more to do with my rejection of most empirical data.” WOW! You certainly do. Everything that led me to reject the church has been gloriously demonstrated here. Thank you Jared for your reinforcement of my dis-belief. I grew up with a constant stream of circular logic and denial of facts. It was so liberating the first time I could say, “I am not a Christian.”

Jared, your focus on the community or group and the de-emphasis of the individual is troubling. Look at the ideologies that have pushed this. The Third Reich was a wonderful example of ideological suppression of the individual.

This guy was a hero way better than Jack Bauer (my second favorite).

I really have to question your choice of heroes here. Jack Bauer tortures people without a second thought. He shoots them in their kneecaps, he shocks them, he breaks their fingers one by one. This is a hero to you?

This is from a British newspaper:

But while 24 draws millions of viewers, it appears some people are becoming a little squeamish. The US military has appealed to the producers of 24 to tone down the torture scenes because of the impact they are having both on troops in the field and America’s reputation abroad. Forget about Abu Ghraib, forget about Guantanamo Bay, forget even that the White House has authorised interrogation techniques that some classify as torture, that damned Jack Bauer is giving us a bad name.

You said you don’t like to think of yourself as one of those ‘traditional christians’, but I find your views distressingly familiar. In addition to the above, you dismiss science not just in reference to religion (which is legitimate) but also in reference to what science IS for, such as biology. Statements such as “You see science wont stand for unknowns. Since it cant prove a God, it will present theories like evolution” and your rejection of evolution based only on one ophthamologist’s opinion show that you don’t have even a basic grasp of what science is about.

But look at the evidence! All these witness seeing something very similar? Or what about unicorns? — less likely less evidence — but there is tremendous evidence for a bigfoot or yeti yet no scientific evidence… Here is my point. Science says these things are not possible, becaus eit cant prove them. But the weight of the evidence suggests they were at least once a reality.

Myth is NOT evidence. Stories passed around are NOT evidence. They are not even CLOSE to evidence. I don’t know where you got your education but it seems to have missed the basics of critical thinking as well as science.

Yeah thats tough.. its not fun, but I totally accept it. It isn’t fair and its not right, but it a part of the fall dating back to the garden.

Original Sin is a devastating thing. I am thankful that the Grace of God eases its effects now and will one day erase them completely.

My question is, have you ever noticed how similar the kind of relationship with god (as reflected in the statements above) is to an abusive relationship with a spouse or child? There’s the defense of the abuser, the excuse put forward that the abused person asked for it by being disobedient or disrespectful, and that the abuser is doing this for the victim’s own good, and the best response to abuse is to try harder to please. The worse the abuse, the more intensely the victim defends the abuser and how it’s not really abuse, but love. Abuse is abuse, can you explain more about why you find it acceptable?

I’ll tell you what I learned having been involved in a church plant or two, the pastor’s income potential is unbelievable and not open for debate.
Soured to the experience? You bet your sweet salvation bedpost I am.

Really??? what denomination? cause i was planning on being poor forever! I need more details I know this seems like a joke but i am serious if there is a big salary package for a church planter I want to know about it.

“Merely by being born, I am damned. This is the single most hideous tenant of your religion. Because of the actions of two people, uncountable billions more must suffer.

Yes –

Why have such a curse in the first place?”

It wasn’t my idea. I wont defend it, but I still think if you could remove some of the value you place on individuality, and understand the infinite worth of God, it might make more sense.

Is it not possible that God can create beings that have the genetic disposition not to sin?

Sure its possible – but thats not the way he did it.

I would assume that God would want to save every soul, no matter what the cost. Yes, He may have done amazing things, assuming He exists, but He’s also done terrible things as well. What I don’t understand is that (I don’t want to say “you Christians,” because that seems awfully mean, but most of the Christians I have talked to share this view) people always seem to take all the good things that have happened in the world, and attribute them to God, ignoring all the bad things. Evil things have happened, but why does God turn a blind eye?

Interesting you should say that. there are different view points on this. Some people say a part of what makes heaven so great is that hell exists…

I say that God offers Jesus to all humanity. This is a free gift. The problem is that because of original sin and our own rebellion, we reject this. Unless God himself changes an individuals heart, they will never see the amazing thing that Jesus did! This guy was a hero way better than Jack Bauer (my second favorite). But because coming to Jesus first requires us saying, “I am not good enough” we reject this gift. This is the natural reaction. we would all react this way without God giving us spiritual CPR and leading us to appreciate him enough to lay down our own pride.

Evil happens because men are wicked, men are wicked because they rejected God (and they go one doing so). I wont say it again about the plans and the future and the hope and all that

I never understood this argument. My parents want me to love them, and yet they don’t hide themselves from me and send mysterious tests my way. By showing themselves to me, and showing me what they have done for me, that doesn’t force me to love them. Rather, it gives me a reason to love them. God has practically been nonexistent in my life. Why should I love Him? How should I know whether or not He exists?

You are right one thing i left out, stupidly, because it makes he most sense…. if he revealed himself to you, you would die. Remember Moses hiding his face in the rock? he only saw God’s back and when he did his face turned so white he had to wear a veil to keep from freaking the people out.

Siamang,

Impressive rant… I wish this blog had audio for that one

First, i don’t remember saying the earth was 6,000 years old. I really don’t remember that.

But consider this for a second. several civilizations have dragon myths. In all of these the dragons have wings and breathe fire. This is scientifically ridiculous. But look at the evidence! All these witness seeing something very similar? Or what about unicorns? — less likely less evidence — but there is tremendous evidence for a bigfoot or yeti yet no scientific evidence… Here is my point. Science says these things are not possible, becaus eit cant prove them. But the weight of the evidence suggests they were at least once a reality. I am not saying Science is pointless, I am saying there are many many areas of realty which Science has never touched.

How old is the earth? I dont know. It’s not the point. I think when it comes to creation we just have to stress that. Zealous creationists have all these scientific formulas to show all this stuff… That just isnt the point… atheists and scientists argue thier point of view and reject Christianity because of the creationists defending a doctrine which – IS NOT THE POINT. I said earlier the First 12 Chapters of Genesis were written to make four points.

God made the earth
He Made it Good
We Screwed it UP
He is going to make it better again.

Thats it. There is no reason, as far as I am concerned that you cannot believe the earth is billions of years old, and dinosaurs died out 33 million years ago and all that. (by the way i never knew what a valcioraptor was until jurassic park… you?). As long you can accept those four points you can get on the Jesus boat. Personally, i believe in a short day creation, but it is not an essential. And most of my reasoning behind believing in short day creation has less to do with the Bible and more to do with my rejection of most empirical data. I am much more a philosopher than a scientist. As i know you all realize by now. Don’t reject me outright for that. I haven’t reject Science, only its ability to explain as much as we think it can.

For instance, Science cant explain why we are all slaves. We are by the way. This again comes not from my Christianity, but from my particular economic leanings… Within our system of economics people become slaves to corporations. why? because they cant find a better health package. People in our culture become slaves to drugs, entertainment, money, lifestyles, alcohol and as terrible as it is to other people. Even in America there are millions of human slaves, but we all serve something. Something that gives us meaning, hope, purpose, makes us feel better. These things whatever they are hold power over us. Human beings have always been that way. Jesus said the truth will set you free. Science cannot explain how the truth that we are indeed enslaved will free us. But it is true.

Ash, I saw your post… but I am tired. You raise some interesting points, let me say this. You cited Jesus insistence that the shepherd leave the flock to go after the one. Part of the reason this was cool, is that the flock was safer than the one, because in community is safety. so this does not dispel the value of community. I would never say Jesus did not care about individuals, only that he cared more about community than Americans do.

I will be back later. For what its worth this is a coming warning… i have my own blog and lots of other priorities, i will slow down the response time here soon. Just a heads up. I don’t want anyone thinking i am copping out, and i will continue to come back and discuss, but after another day or two not as often.

take care!