01.01.08
An Atheist and a Christian: A Love Story
A (true) love story to kick off the year. I have talked to the couple and they gave me permission to tell their story.
It’s longer than most of my postings, but I hope you’ll take the time to read it.
…
Kate is a dyed-in-the-wool atheist. She was raised in a non-religious home, but had relatives who were Christians. She recalls her aunt once yelling at her mother over Christmas dinner because Kate had not been baptized. Kate began calling herself an atheist when she was old enough to explore the issues on her own. This wasn’t a big deal in the community she lived in, where religion was kept private and most people she knew were not very religious to begin with.
Still, Kate was very outspoken about her non-belief in God. She had a Darwin Fish symbol on the back of her car. She admits she sometimes sought out Christians for the sole purpose of starting an argument — and she would make jokes about Christianity. Not often, but it happened.
It wasn’t until she went to college that she learned her views on religion actually put her in a minority. When Kate moved into her dorm room her freshman year, she was greeted with cut-outs of Christian sayings that were placed on the wall. Her religious roommate couldn’t have been a more exact polar opposite to Kate. When the roommate opened a biology textbook, she said, “Kate, this book says that evolution is the foundation of biology!” As Kate waited for more, the roommate added, “That’s it… I didn’t think they were allowed to write that!”
As hard as they tried to get along, it was difficult. It didn’t help that the roommate told Kate she was going to hell. When Kate appealed to the roommate to be nicer, she responded that since she was already “saved,” she didn’t have to be nice.
The dorm wasn’t Kate’s only source of religious strife. The Campus Crusade for Christ chapter was a “large, intimidating presence” at her university. A separate group put up a banner in the central part of campus on April 1. It read: “Happy Atheist Day: Psalm 14:1.” (That verse states “The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.”) When a student ripped the poster down, it was he who was vilified, not those who put the poster up mocking non-believing students.
Kate managed to endure the Christian environment through the social support network she had back home, but that support was several hundred miles away.
Her experience with Christians finally changed during her junior year of college. She met a guy named Erik in one of her Spanish classes and they became friends. Though, as with many college acquaintances, once the class ended they lost touch. They didn’t reconnect until a year later when they found each other on Facebook.
Facebook profiles give people a chance to write a short description about themselves — they can also list their religion affiliation. Kate and Erik quickly shifted their eyes to see what the other had written in the biography field. It was a shock for both of them. Kate saw Bible verses on Erik’s page. Erik saw the phrase “I’m proud to be an atheist” on Kate’s. They decided to go out, but neither brought up what they had seen on Facebook. However, a couple outings later, they realized just how different their views were. Erik was a devout Christian who led a Bible study group. Kate owned several books about atheism and later joined her campus’s freethought group. They wondered: could you date someone who wasn’t on the same religious (or non-religious) path as yourself?
Yet, as Kate and Erik got to know each other, they found that they shared interests and beliefs on just about everything outside the realm of religion. They were becoming good friends and a tight bond was forming.
“I was a little disappointed, since we got along so well,” Kate said.
Not long after, they began dating, which was as surprising to them as it was for everyone who knew them. And their relationship helped them realize how badly they were treating people who held different viewpoints.
Kate says she learned how to speak appropriately around Christians. When she had previously heard Christians tell Bible stories, she wouldn’t hesitate to say, “Do you really believe that?” The implication was that most Christians were gullible. As she began to know more about Erik, however, she discovered there were educated Christians in the world.
Erik changed as well. Before meeting Kate, he had held the view that all atheists were the product of a bad childhood experience with religion or the result of abuse in the church. Essentially, he believed atheists were atheists because they hated God or Christianity.
Through Kate, he learned that it was possible to be an atheist based on reasoned, logical arguments. It was a well-thought-out system of (non-)belief. It wasn’t always the result of a bad experience or a case of teenage rebellion. Erik didn’t agree with the arguments, but he admits many of them do have merit.
It was a tough transition for the couple, but they began to get used to their differences.
Now try to imagine the reaction of Erik’s parents when they found out Kate was an atheist, a month after they had met her for the first time.
“But, Kate can’t be atheist!” said Erik’s mom. “She’s nice, and I get along with her!”
At the time, his parents thought his attraction to a girl who is an atheist was just a phase. When they found out he was serious about this relationship, they attempted to stop him, telling him that if he married an atheist he would be disobeying God. They were worried that Kate would change Erik’s views about faith.
They just wanted what they thought was best for him. When that didn’t seem to be working, though, they focused their energies on Kate, trying to help her accept Christ as her savior. They told her how much they cared about her, but they were worried about her not sharing their son’s faith. They were also scared. Their dream of having Christian grandchildren was slipping away. Even worse, they were afraid they would lose their son and not see him in Heaven.
At one point, Erik stopped speaking to his parents.
He understood where his parents were coming from: he, too, had once believed that deep inside everyone wanted to be a Christian — it was just a matter of having the opportunity to hear the gospel. It never crossed his mind that other viewpoints could have merit. It was as if their pastor’s reasons for believing in God had worked for Erik’s parents, but the reasons weren’t good enough for Kate. In church, they were taught that these types of theological conversations stopped with the proper Christian answer. They weren’t expecting rebuttals, and when they heard them they didn’t know what to do.
Once, around the time Kate was filling out applications for graduate school, Erik’s mom invited her over for “girl time.” It was going to be just cross-stitching and tea, Kate thought. But during the meeting, the mother brought out the Bible and began reading a verse about how God was in control of the situation. Erik’s mom also mentioned how she wished Kate believed in God — it would lessen her stress about the grad school applications. Kate nodded politely, but inside she was irritated.
When Erik’s father joined in the discussion later that evening (as Erik says, for “tag team evangelism”), the topic turned to evolution and how the parents’ pastor had told them it was flawed for a number of reasons. When Kate heard the reasons, she knew exactly the proper explanations to respond with, but this time she kept her mouth shut. It was the polite thing to do, and for Erik’s sake she wanted to keep the peace.
His parents kept their cool. They told Kate she wasn’t a bad person. She was a sinner just like everyone else. However, what was an innocuous statement for them was incredibly offensive to Kate, who did not feel sinful at all. This conversation lasted for more than five arduous hours. (Erik describes this talk as the time his parents “ninja evangelized.”)
It was this type of interaction that had pushed her even further away from Christianity during college.
Several months later, his parents demanded that either Kate convert to Christianity or Erik put a stop to the relationship.
Despite these harsh words and Kate’s belief that the parents were extremely misguided, she knew their intentions were good. They wanted the best for her, and to their way of thinking, the best involved God.
You may wonder about Kate’s parents’ reaction. Her mother told Kate not to change for Erik. That is, if Kate became a Christian only because Erik was one, it wasn’t the right reason to do so. But her parents knew they taught Kate how to think, not what to think, so they were not worried. Both of Kate’s parents told her they would accept her regardless of her decisions.
It was a far cry from Erik’s Christian home, where his parents essentially told him it was mandatory that Kate change (if marriage was in their future), but it was not permissible the other way around.
Kate continued dating Erik because she knew he was different from his parents.
But how does a relationship like this last? If you ask Kate and Erik, they’ll laugh and tell you they have no idea. (That’s not a joke; they’re serious.) But it turns out they both share core values and a passion to find the truth, whatever it may be.
They also have strong communication and conflict-resolution skills. They both strive to understand each other instead of trying to change the other. If an interfaith relationship with two passionate people is going to work, they say, you can’t be under the delusion that you will change your partner. Not when it comes to faith.
If the subject of God comes up, Kate has learned how to speak about her beliefs without making inappropriate comments. Erik no longer speaks in “us versus them” terminology nor does he use phrases like “being saved” which carry no weight outside conservative Christianity and actually offend non-religious people.
They both also share values and morals, though the reasons for those beliefs come from different places. Erik is more liberal on social issues and focuses on society’s needs such as helping the poor. He sees the Bible as the best guide book for life, not a book filled with literal truths. As he says, he is a follower of Jesus, not the Bible.
Kate says that Erik helped her become a different kind of atheist: one who is more compassionate and understanding. Christians are no longer “the enemy” for her. She removed the Darwin Fish emblem from her car out of respect to others and stopped telling (or laughing at) jokes that ripped on Christians.
For them, love is conquering the barriers that arise between people with such differing beliefs.
Erik no longer sees atheists as a threat to his religion. Instead, he sees them as people who have well-thought-out beliefs. In fact, he says that one of the most difficult challenges to his faith has been Kate’s continued atheism. He believed that if non-Christians were exposed to God’s Word, or a kind Christian who could explain it well, or at least a good church, belief in Jesus’ divinity was unavoidable. Kate was an exception to that unwritten rule.
Speaking of churches, they even go to them together. (Yes, that’s churches, plural.) They spend time going to places of worship and discussing them afterward. Each visit provides them with an opportunity to discuss faith (and non-faith) in a positive way.
Kate once visited the church of Erik’s parents, a Baptist church where the pastor made inaccurate statements about Christianity’s origins without providing any references to where he found this information and appeared to be hostile toward other faiths.
It was a dramatic change from another church they visited which was more contemporary and catered to young adults. Erik had enjoyed this church at one time, attending it for nearly two years and playing a large role in the planning and operation of various ministries. He loved their casual nature, their decision not to speak in “Christian-ese,” and the music they sang. When he had visited this church more frequently, he thought it to be accessible for everyone, not just other Christians. Eventually, it became too conservative for his tastes and the ethos of the church became combative against non-Christians. But when he visited with Kate, he still hoped she would see it for the good it contained.
Kate was not impressed. Erik couldn’t understand it at first:
“What I considered to be the best effort of Christianity was woefully inadequate at influencing people like Kate. It was then that I began to see things through her eyes. I saw how offended she was when she was depicted as being “in the dark” and “lost.” I saw the absurdity of people who claim Christ as their Lord yet live lives of wastefulness and intolerance.”
Both of them even went to a Unitarian Universalist church. This time, they both had a positive experience. It was hard to disagree with what they were hearing — the church didn’t seem to be taking a stance on the existence of God, merely how there was a need to nourish one’s spirituality. When discussing the beauty of nature, Erik could see it through a Christian filter (nature was beautiful thanks to God). Kate could understand nature purely through the elegance of natural selection.
Not only do they visit churches, but Erik has also attended Kate’s campus atheist group’s meetings. He was surprised how, sometimes, they didn’t even discuss atheism or religion very much — they were just happy to be spending time with like-minded people.
At one group event, he saw a movie by atheist director Brian Flemming called The God Who Wasn’t There. The other students didn’t know there was a Christian in their midst. After the movie, as Kate says, Erik “dropped the C-bomb.”
But the other students weren’t offended or upset. They were curious and interested. They had a good discussion with Erik and constantly asked his opinion on certain parts of the movie. Of course, some of the skeptics were… well… skeptical of his motives. However, after speaking with him, they found out he was a Christian who had given serious thought to why he held his beliefs. He could think for himself instead of merely parroting what he had been told in a church, and they respected him for that.
Kate and Erik joke about how forcing atheists and Christians to date would bring about more peace, tolerance, and understanding. Even without the close relationship, the idea that people with such different worldviews can get along so well is an important message in itself.
One question I had for them was how they would raise children if that time ever came. While neither has a definite answer, they both feel like giving the child a broad range of religious experiences is the best way to go. Erik wants to provide the child with answers from multiple sources — what mommy believes, what daddy believes, and what others believe. Kate would prefer a more secular approach, but also understands the value of seeing the wider range of beliefs. She wants her children to know it’s okay that their parents have different beliefs. Questions are also encouraged. It won’t be easy, but it will have to be discussed, and they have time before the issue of children becomes a potential reality.
In the meantime, Erik is considering adding a bumper sticker on the car to replace Kate’s old Darwin Fish. It would read: Jesus was a liberal.
Technorati Tags: atheist, atheism, love
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AJ said,
January 1, 2008 at 3:48 pm
Hemant,
Atheist?!?
Spiritual paths?!?
Kinds of atheism?!?
Kate's brother said,
January 1, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Sounds like a couple of losers. Just kidding.
I should add that Erik’s parents have encouraged Kate to talk to me (her brother), to find out how I found Christ coming out of a “heathen” family. I’m still waiting for that conversation…
Kate said,
January 1, 2008 at 4:06 pm
As usual, Aj’s being a nasty, bitter person…
Hemant, thanks for posting this!
It’s kinda weird to see it all written out. February will mark out two years together for us. Erik’s currently at an emergent Christian church and I’ve settled into the local Unitarian congregation (learning that I can now hyphenate myself as a UU-atheist-humanist). Of course we both still regularly read this blog and still each have our copies of your book that brought us closer together and inspired us to go on our own church hopping excursion. We look forward to another year of making atheists and Christians drop their jaws as we introduce ourselves as a weird interfaith couple. 
Erik and I both wish you the best for 2008!
Hemant Mehta said,
January 1, 2008 at 4:19 pm
AJ — You raise some good points. I changed a couple things to make it more clear.
“Her religious views” — I changed that to “views on religion” to avoid any confusion.
“spiritual paths” — I made it “religious or (non-religious)”… it’s a bit more wordy, but hopefully more accurate.
“different kind of atheist” — yep. I know plenty of “angry” atheists, non-angry atheists who are still passionate about it, atheists who just don’t care about religion, etc.
Jennifurret said,
January 1, 2008 at 4:27 pm
Well, all I can say is good luck. I am an atheist, and I dated a christian for about nine months, and it was the biggest mistake of my life. He would frequently make comments about how wrong I was, and try to get me to become a Christian. And when he had given up on that, he was constantly treating me with disdain, thinking that I was being the bad guy - that because I didn’t believe, I would go to hell, and then it would be his fault that I wasn’t saved. He ultimately broke up with me because he couldn’t have a longer relationship with someone he knew wasn’t religious, because he knew they were damned. I always tried to be accepting of his beliefs, I never argued with him, and I even offered to go to church with him. It seems you’re lucky that it’s more of your boyfriends parents that exhibit this behavior instead of him, but you’ll need the luck. I can’t imagine living a life where the people around me think I have committed a great crime, and that I was dooming their son to an eternity of damnation. That’s just the worst kind of hatred right there. So…good luck.
Ben said,
January 1, 2008 at 4:28 pm
Interesting. I really want to go back to my pre-2004 or 2005 behavior of ignoring religion and religious people. The discussions and experiences are overwhelmingly painful and depressing.
Perhaps my kids’ world will be such that they won’t feel compelled to confront it. It doesn’t seem a reasonable hope that I’ll be able to go back to avoidance mode.
Susan B. said,
January 1, 2008 at 5:00 pm
Congratulations Kate and Erik, and I hope your relationship continues to grow and strengthen! It’s stories like these that I think can help break down these silly walls of intolerance and misunderstanding between atheists and religious folks. I hope more people will be willing to question their own beliefs, as well as their beliefs about others who believe differently.
AJ said,
January 1, 2008 at 5:01 pm
Hemant,
Thank you, you’re usually spot on with your language, and call people when they’re not.
Can’t let anyone think atheism is a religion, although many already have that impression, so many seem to think it’s satanism, scientism, or something else.
I’m not averse to the word spiritual, and obviously anyone can have a spiritual experience, but a frozen waterfall, meditation, or a year in a cave isn’t going to lead a rationalist to change their views on Jesus’s divinity.
Part of my objection to “a different kind of Atheist” is it seemed to me you were implying that Atheists are generally not more compassionate and understanding. Another small objection is that Atheism as a lack of belief in god is a tiny thing that doesn’t imply much or define a person apart from separating them from large group of people who do. The larger part is that those things do not have anything to do with Atheism at all.
Kate,
That seems uncalled for… and hypocritical.
Joe M said,
January 1, 2008 at 5:21 pm
Kate and Erik,
I hope everything works out as well for you as it is for me and my wife, who is Christian. We butt heads sometimes (what couple doesn’t), but now 6 years on, we’re happier, stronger, and more in love than ever!
It sounds to me, from your story, that you two have the same kind of relationship that we do.
Kate said,
January 1, 2008 at 5:41 pm
Joe M and Susan - thank you for your good wishes!! I can only hope that our relationship develops as yours has, Joe.
Aj - I was going to post a snarky comment in response but what the hell, Happy New Years.
Best wishes!
The Unbrainwashed said,
January 1, 2008 at 5:56 pm
Whenever I’m confronted with a practicing Christian, complete with virgin birth and resurrection beliefs, I always have the same reaction. I’ve met plenty of kind and intelligent Christians, but I can never escape the opinion that they’re severely deluded. I’m consistently stupefied when I hear these individuals articulate their belief in these insane things. It’s like hearing someone talk about unicorns or the like. I don’t think I can ever fully respect someone if I was constantly reminded of their faith.
Michael said,
January 1, 2008 at 6:38 pm
What a beautiful and truly inspiring story.
It seems that far too often, when we are entrenched in these battles of ideology, we lose sight of what really matters.
I dated a Lutheran girl for over two years, while I was still Mormon, and the religion was eventually the cause of our downfall. In the end, we were not able to see past all the differences to see the love we shared. As an atheist now, I’m sure we’d be even worse off now.
Best of luck to you both.
AJ is apparently completely blind to the beauty of the story. That, or just wants/needs attention. Here’s some more attention, buddy - don’t capitalize “atheist” or “atheism.” You shouldn’t need me to tell you why.
Kate’s brother:
If there truly is an all-knowing and benevolent father figure somewhere out there, I cannot help but think that he would be in strong favor of love and acceptance, especially in the face of such turmoil caused by well-meaning but destructive people. The Christ I was taught about as a boy spent most of his time with the worst of the sinners, and through his example and love, inspired them. Christ never condemned, nor slandered, nor ‘tried to save’ anyone. His overwhelming love was enough. Emulate this. If the common Christian god does exist, he works through love, and time. Judge ye not, or you are no better than the Pharisees.
I hope you both have a fantastic year!
grazatt said,
January 1, 2008 at 6:45 pm
It seems like they would be a good couple to appera on the talk show circuit.and what is the deal with Kate’s brother?
Maria said,
January 1, 2008 at 7:04 pm
I agree! Best of luck to both Kate and Eric. If the “kid question” ever does come up, several friends I have sent their kids to Unitarian classes where they learned about all religions (and that it’s okay not to believe) and let them make up their own minds. It seems to have worked really well. I hope things work out for you. As for Eric’s parents, I hope they come around or it seems like they could really miss out.
Richard Wade said,
January 1, 2008 at 7:09 pm
I would like to hear how Erik is handling his relationship with his parents lately. The only detail I read was that at one time he stopped talking to them. Does he have to directly defy them? Does he conceal his relationship from them? Are his age or economic dependency factors in how much pressure they can bring to bear on him? This part of the story sounds like it has at least as much potential for pain for him as what Kate has gone through.
To Kate’s brother:
Please listen to the gentle words of Michael. For you to start your first comment with a sarcastic crack suggests there may be a good reason that she has not come to you to talk about this. Saying “just kidding” does not take away the sting of a slap in the face. This is not a matter to be “kidding” about.
Kate is your sister. Soon enough she may be the only family you have left. Treat her with respect, love and empathy regardless of her views.
Seavee said,
January 1, 2008 at 7:19 pm
I am a new poster on this site and this is a difficult topic. I will try and make my comments as sensitive as possible.
How does Erik reconcile the fact that the Christian Bible specifically says that Christians should not join themselves with unbelievers (Second Corinthians 6:14)? A Christian is defined as someone who follows the teachings of Christ. The Bible is generally considered the authority on the teachings of Christ. Is he a Christian or isn’t he?
I am an atheist myself so I don’t ask because I agree with the Bible. I ask because it addresses what I see as the fundamental problem between atheist and Christian relationships. How does the Christian party reconcile their belief without becoming hypocritical?
Please understand that I do not mean to be unkind. I simply have a very difficult time imagining how this scenario could be successful. Discussion might help me out here. Changing my mind would certainly broaden my miniscule dating pool.
Richard Wade said,
January 1, 2008 at 7:27 pm
Hemant, thank you for this wonderful story. When I want people to see the essence of what you are trying to do, I will refer them to this post.
Claire said,
January 1, 2008 at 8:07 pm
While the story as a whole was a nice example of people overcoming prejudices, this part disturbed me. I don’t think it’s rude to respectfully disagree, and it seems odd to me that silence in the face of ignorance is considered polite, rather than a way of dismissing the speaker as incapable of learning or growing. I’m not saying Kate should have spoken up right then, it may not have been the best time, but it does bother me anytime someone equates politeness with silence when confronted with ignorance.
Kate and Erik, you are both very lucky to have found each other, as I am sure you already know…
Allison said,
January 1, 2008 at 8:08 pm
Awwwww, it’s always good to hear of another “weird interfaith couple”!
Kate, best of luck and a world of happiness to you and Erik. My Christian husband and I have been together for 15 years now, married for 12, and have two children together. It can be done, and done happily! I’m sorry that his parents have not been reacting well, and hope they come to terms with your relationship.
Dawn said,
January 1, 2008 at 8:35 pm
Congrats Kate! I’m a Christian chick who’s been married to my atheist man for 10 years and it’s been all good. Just remember that those who look at your relationship and can’t imagine how it will work are revealing nothing but their own lack of imagination.
Dawn said,
January 1, 2008 at 8:43 pm
That’s getting sort of close to a no true scotsman kind of thing.
It’s generally a more fundamentalist protestant view that argues the bible is a divine and literal rulebook and unless you’re going to argue many major denominations aren’t Christian (which is also a fairly common fundamentalist view!) then you might look into textual criticism and more liberal christian scholarship concerning the bible ( I think religioustolerance.org has some good info). You may think it’s as half-assed as any other view of the bible but it should help answer your questions.
Jen said,
January 1, 2008 at 8:55 pm
I agree with Richard; I am curious what the current relationship is between Erik and his parents.
I am not sure I understand why this is a terrible question. There would be times it would be rude to ask, I suppose, but if someone expresses to me that they think certain Biblical events are literal retellings of actual events, I would ask if they truely believed that. Come on, now, how could anyone believe that the some of the stuff in there is real? There are educated Christians, yes, and many of them know plenty about their religion, but I have never heard a sane, rational person think that the Bible is a literal retelling of only literal, true events.
Claire said,
January 1, 2008 at 9:27 pm
Me, either. As long as it is a real question, and it isn’t phrased as “do you really believe that pile of crap” or said with the equivalent intonation, why is it a problem?
I have. Furthermore, the person who thinks that is an educated, intelligent woman and a good friend, whose common sense and good judgement I value in every area outside that of religion.
People will never cease to amaze me.
mack the knife said,
January 1, 2008 at 9:33 pm
Advice for atheists dating Christians: Or, what I wish I knew.
1. Don’t be a bitch. No matter how much what they believe stuns you, shocks you, disgusts you, or pisses you off, count to 10, and give them the benefit of the doubt that there is a reason they believe what they do.
2. Think about your own beliefs; why are you an atheist? How sound is your own philosophical foundation? How thoroughly have you *really* investigated things? Even though atheism inherently makes sense, imagine if you were brought up differently. Even if you were brought up in a Christian household, maybe your understanding of Christianity is just plain wrong. Mine was (is).
3. Don’t change for the other person. Similarly, don’t expect them to change for you. How does this promote harmony? I don’t know, ask Kate and Eric. All that matters is that the respect is present and mutual, and that views are changed not for a person, but for the merit of the views. It is your responsibility to learn all you can about religion; you might even find a branch of Christianity more acceptable to you than the one they currently follow (ie- convert your Evangelical to Catholicism). I do believe it is possible for an atheist to legitimately become a Christian, as it is for a Christian to legitimately become an atheist. Exception: Don’t date Creationists, unless they *are* willing to change for you. No one loves a nut job. Some Mormons fit this exception as well. You be the judge, date at your discretion, and at your own risk.
If you do fall in love with them:
1. If you’re the kind of person who can’t deal with heartache, I’d recommend against it; it’s probably not going to work, and it just sort of sucks.
2. But if you do, think about what you really want in the long term. If you’re considering marrying them, are you willing to raise your kids Christian? It’s probably a lot more important to them than it is to you, although that’s starting to change. As atheists, we would largely be ashamed to raise religious kids. To ease this burden, find some brand of Christianity that either a) makes sense and is tolerable, or b) doesn’t make any sense at all, and the child will rebel against it as soon as they are old enough.
3. If you love them, but seriously can’t deal with a religious spouse or future, think about what it will feel like in five or ten years after they’re gone. Do you look forward to marrying a (sane!) atheist, who loves you and treats you right and shares your views on one of the most defining characteristics of your Self? Or will you regret it? Will you miss the Christian when he or she leaves your life? Are they truly one of a kind? Not the “I loved you but there are other fish in the sea” type of love. Not the “I’m not ever going to find anyone willing to date me again” type of love. But the truest sort of love imaginable. If this is the case, well, weigh that against their religion.
4. We seem to weigh, today, truth more than happiness. This is one of the most defining characteristics of atheists today: we gladly give up the wonderful notion that there is a God, and he loves us, because we cannot know it to be true. Which matters to you? Are they necessarily contradicting? We are often materialists, often determinists. We are freethinkers, and often arrived at atheism by following the natural course of our own minds, despite the religious ideas floating around us. But be warned: atheism, materialism, and determinism are comforting notions too. You must question them. If you fall in love with a theist, maybe it will last, maybe it won’t. But it is up to you to at least get the most out of the experience; challenge their ideas, but also, challenge your own.
Good luck, and Happy New Year.
Linda said,
January 1, 2008 at 9:34 pm
Great story, Hemant!
and thanks to Kate and Erik for sharing their story. Best wishes to you both!
He was also a polemicist. The best one.
mack the knife said,
January 1, 2008 at 9:38 pm
Advice for atheists dating Christians: Or, what I wish I knew.
1. Don’t be a b*tch. No matter how much what they believe stuns you, shocks you, disgusts you, or pisses you off, count to 10, take a breath, and give them the benefit of the doubt that there is a reason they believe what they do.
2. Think about your own beliefs; why are you an atheist? How sound is your own philosophical foundation? How thoroughly have you *really* investigated things? Even though atheism inherently makes sense, imagine if you were brought up differently. Even if you were brought up in a Christian household, maybe your understanding of Christianity is just plain wrong. Mine was (is).
3. Don’t change for the other person. Similarly, don’t expect them to change for you. How does this promote harmony? I don’t know, ask Kate and Eric. All that matters is that the respect is present and mutual, and that views are changed not for a person, but for the merit of the views. It is your responsibility to learn all you can about religion; you might even find a branch of Christianity more acceptable to you than the one they currently follow (ie- convert your Evangelical to Catholicism). I do believe it is possible for an atheist to legitimately become a Christian, as it is for a Christian to legitimately become an atheist. Exception: Don’t date Creationists, unless they *are* willing to change for you. No one loves a nut job. Some Mormons fit this exception as well. You be the judge, date at your discretion, and at your own risk.
If you do fall in love with them:
1. If you’re the kind of person who can’t deal with heartache, I’d recommend against it, it’s probably not going to work, and it just sort of sucks.
2. But if you do, think about what you really want in the long term. If you’re considering marrying them, are you willing to raise your kids Christian? It’s probably a lot more important to them than it is to you, although that’s starting to change. As atheists, we would largely be ashamed to raise religious kids. To ease this burden, find some brand of Christianity that either a) makes sense and is tolerable, or b) doesn’t make any sense at all, and the child will rebel against it as soon as they are old enough (depending on how bitter you’re willing to be. I’d go with choice “a”).
3. If you love them, but seriously can’t deal with a religious spouse or future, think about what it will feel like in five or ten years after they’re gone. Do you look forward to marrying a (sane!) atheist, who loves you and treats you right and shares your views on one of the most defining characteristics of your Self? Or will you regret it? Will you miss the Christian when he or she leaves your life? Are they truly one of a kind? Not the “I loved you but there are other fish in the sea” type of love. Not the “I’m not ever going to find anyone willing to date me again” type of love. But the truest sort of love imaginable. If this is the case, well, weigh that against their religion. Religion and atheism may seem to matter a lot right now, but one day, when you’re older and wiser, you just may regret allowing it to destroy something as rare and beautiful as Love.
4. We seem to weigh, frequently, truth more than happiness. This is one of the most defining characteristics of atheists today: we gladly give up the wonderful notion that there is a God, who loves us, because we cannot know it to be true. Of truth and happiness, which matters to you? Are they necessarily conflicting? Which can you realistically attain? We atheists are often materialists, often determinists. We are freethinkers, and often arrived at atheism by following the natural course of our own minds, despite the religious ideas floating around us. But be warned: atheism, materialism, and determinism are comforting notions too. You must question them. If you fall in love with a theist, maybe it will last, maybe it won’t. But it is up to you to at least get the most out of the experience; challenge their ideas, but also, challenge your own.
Good luck, and Happy New Year.
Kate said,
January 1, 2008 at 10:29 pm
Wow, lots of comments!! And lots to respond to…
Just very quickly, Richard, I promise you that my brother and I are very close. He has a constant wit that makes us all groan and roll our eyes. What’s missing from his comment (and I pointed it out later to him) is his devious grin. He’s just a big joker, and there are no hard feelings between us. But I appreciate your words!
I’ll comment more later, specifically trying to answer some of the questions posed here, and Erik will post tomorrow night after he enjoys his day of New England skiing (we live in the south so we’re visiting my family right now).
Jeff said,
January 1, 2008 at 10:55 pm
Kate and Erik, good luck with your relationship. Religiously mixed relationships can work. I have been married to a Christian for about 13 years now and we have two kids (10 and 5). I am fortunate that my wife’s parents are not evangelical fundamentalists. They are mainly of the belief that everyone should belong to some kind of church but it doesn’t really matter what kind. I had my little “interview” with them early on when my wife and I were first dating. They were satisfied that I sufficiently respected religious and conservative principles (even though I was a liberal atheist). We have kind of learned not to argue about religion or politics.
We have recently joined a church at my wife’s insistence. I have found it very interesting and participate in some ministries and meet for a weekly Christian small group. I view it as probing deeper into the Christian mind and I don’t let the mindset that all atheists are tools of the devil and are going to hell bother me. I view it as simply a fascinating mind-set.
As for how to raise kids, we didn’t start going to church at all until our older child was already 8 years old. He probably missed the formative years of religious indoctrination. He basically dropped his Santa Clause and what-ever god belief he might have picked up about a year ago. Our younger child is more susceptible for the religious indoctrination and we will have to wait and see how he turns out.
Probably all a child needs, though, is one parent to be non-religious to enable the child to be able to have an open mind.
I say go for it. A mixed relationship can be a very interesting enjoyable experience where both people learn from each other… You will be living what the world at large needs to do. Find creative ways to make it work.
Linda said,
January 1, 2008 at 11:08 pm
Kate, thank goodness you cleared that up. That’s the feeling I got when I read his comment. I was getting all geared up to defend him, but now I don’t have to. Yay!
supersmiley said,
January 1, 2008 at 11:27 pm
Very cool story, my husband is an Athiest, and I was introduced to Christianity at 13, with it being forcefully taught as the way things were and that you didn’t question “God’s Teachings”. We lived together before we got married, which was another hurdle that was difficult for my parents to digest, but I think that inevetably, it was the fear of the unknown. We have been married for a year now and it has been a very rewarding and challenging experience, one I have learned immensely from. I think that what you said about “speaking appropriately”, sometimes choosing your words wisely, means to avoid arguing the truth, for some of these christians, they live life by others standards, and often being open minded, especially to the older generation, is extremely difficult to comprehend. Ultimately, I wish the best for you two, I know for us, when we have kids, we will encourage them to make their own decisions and most of all, think for themselves, not to live by “standards of others”. Your story was an encouragement.
Shishberg said,
January 1, 2008 at 11:58 pm
Wow. Great story. You both sound like the kind of people we need more of.
JoshH said,
January 2, 2008 at 12:56 am
A couple of things here throw me off:
After this, it’s said that Kate’s parents would support her no matter what she believed. And then:
I don’t think there is anything good about those intentions. Erik’s parents are trying to control Erik’s life and happiness. I mean, it’s pretty obvious he hasn’t given in to them, but still.
I’m happy to see though that the two of you are happy together and love each other despite being religious and non-religious. I don’t think I could do it, to be honest. I’ve always wondered how it would feel to know the person you love most is going to burn in hell for eternity. Sorry, I’m not trying to sound harsh but that’s essentially a big foundation of what Erik believes…isn’t it? My wife is an atheist, as am I, and I couldn’t stomach her having to live with and suffer from such a dreadful, mentally tormenting thought. Kudos to you.
Lynn said,
January 2, 2008 at 1:02 am
These two really seemed like a couple of jerks to start with. Are we supposed to celebrate that they merely learned to become decent human beings and not insult other beliefs? I’ve been an atheist since before I even knew there was a term for it, but I’ve dated all sorts of different belief systems, from Wiccan to Mormon, Jewish to Catholic. I accepted that even if I didn’t agree with them, it was their choice, and they gave me the same respect. My closest friends in college were devout Christians. Of course, I choose not to associate with those type of assholes as in your post, regardless of what they believe. How about all the people that accept others from the start?
yinyang said,
January 2, 2008 at 1:30 am
If they’re all this interesting (and fairly well-written), you should have longer posts more often.
Hemant Mehta said,
January 2, 2008 at 1:39 am
If only they didn’t take me so long to write…
Richard Wade said,
January 2, 2008 at 2:46 am
Yeah, they’re great. Problem is that there’s so damn few like that. Most folks have to go through a growing up process to get to such a state. That’s what this post is about. I’ll celebrate that. So there. Nyahh.
Maria said,
January 2, 2008 at 3:34 am
LOL. well said
AJ said,
January 2, 2008 at 5:15 am
JoshH,
Maybe they believe marrying an atheist is a sin that will make their son go to hell. They could get that impression from the Bible, and they’ve probably been indoctrinated to accept the premises a) God exists, b) the Bible was inspired by God. Given unjustified beliefs, people can believe terrible things with good intentions.
Julie said,
January 2, 2008 at 8:07 am
I suppose you miss out on a lot of great people if you limit the dating pool to those who share your belief system. But to me, that’s just sort of sad. It demonstrates how pervasive religion is. Otherwise perfectly reasonable people believe really weird stuff that makes no sense, and it’s kind of the best we can do, at the moment. I would hesitate to tell an atheist to leave a relationship like this, because the truth is the chance of finding someone compatible who happens to be an atheist is probably low. Lucky me, I did it. But love is always great, if it works, so more power to you both.
Bart said,
January 2, 2008 at 8:25 am
A question for Erik.
Do you believe that Kate will go to hell if she doesn’t become a Christian? If so, how does that figure into your relationship?
A question for Kate.
Do you believe in an afterlife? (yes, you could be an atheist who believes there’s “something more” without that being a god).
Linda said,
January 2, 2008 at 12:17 pm
After reading this post, I decided to do a little experiment and asked my husband if he would still love me if I suddenly became an atheist. He thought about it for a few seconds, and said, “I don’t know.”
I kept pressuring him to think about it, and his final answer was still “I don’t know.”
Hmmm…. interesting.
mack the knife said,
January 2, 2008 at 12:29 pm
…Shocking… depressing… I’m so sorry… This should be a standard test we give men when they claim to love us. If we have to conform to their system of belief, this suggests that they don’t trust our intellect enough to make choices that are different from theirs (Remember, this works both ways!). Would you still love him if his views changed?
hoverFrog said,
January 2, 2008 at 12:39 pm
Linda that’s terrible. Although The Hildy tells me that if I ever decide that I want to be a Jehovah’s Witness I will never see our children again. That seem fair doesn’t it?
grazatt said,
January 2, 2008 at 2:47 pm
Kate, is your bfother a convert to Christianity? How did this happen?
miller said,
January 2, 2008 at 3:30 pm
I wonder where this took place. That college sounds far worse than anything I’ve ever experienced. That “Happy Atheist Day” poster is pretty much gloating over the fact that the Bible is bigoted, and so are they. The “ninja evangelism” sounds pretty bad too–I would have asked to leave.
Some people will get out of this that neither side needs to change the other, but I don’t think that’s true. Both parties did change, just not the way you might expect.
Richard Wade said,
January 2, 2008 at 5:57 pm
Asking your man if he’d still love you if you suddenly changed your views or beliefs about religion is a fair question, but the answers may have to be more complicated than yes or no. Loving you and being comfortable living with you may be separate things for some people. Just don’t ask him “Does this make me look fat?”
Erik said,
January 2, 2008 at 7:41 pm
Well, after a long day on the frigid ski slopes, I will attempt to answer the two basic questions it seems people have for me.
For people that have questions about how I can be “unequally yoked” and date someone who I’m supposed to believe is going to hell, remember that Christianity is an incredibly diverse religion. Evangelical conservatives always claim that their version of Christianity is the only version, and to argue that I’m not a true Christian because I don’t follow their interpretation is buying in to their misguided view. I readily admit that I don’t fit the evangelical conservative Christian mold, and I’m not really sure what mold I fit in. There are myriad views within the Christian umbrella on being “unequally yoked” as well as what hell is and who goes there. If you’re only familiar with the hard-line evangelical view, I encourage you to branch out and learn about the diversity within Christianity.
In terms of my relationship with my parents, it’s a back and forth situation. I know they really like Kate, but struggle with how to express what they believe the Bible says about evangelizing. I don’t really want to spill the family details on a website (any more than what’s above), but I have been financially independent for two years now and they don’t have any control other than emotional. That being said, I think Kate will vouch for me that I’m emotionally independent as well. I try to make the best of every situation that comes up with my family, but ultimately I will decide what is best for me based on my own criteria and not theirs.
Hemant, thanks for the the work you put in to listening to our story and writing this article. I’m glad to see it’s being put to good use! By the way, I’m an Obama supporter, too, and will be anxiously watching the caucus in Iowa tomorrow
Adam Hall said,
January 4, 2008 at 1:04 am
She should have become a mental health nurse/doctor, she is obviously attracted to delusional psychotics. The bit about being a more spiritual atheist is comical. I personally think this whole thing is made up. Someone who wants everyone to get along put this little story together. “Hi, my husband and his family thinks that a zombie ghost jew speaks to him and they have conversations about evil spirits that are inside his and everyones bodies. I learned to live with this”. Talk about desperate, The reality is if they were reasonable they would stop believing in Sky-God(tm). Wow, hope this a-holes don’t have kids!
Erik said,
January 4, 2008 at 11:30 am
Adam, I think you’ll find your vitriol to be in the minority at this website. Notice the URL…it says F-R-I-E-N-D-L-Y atheist. You’re certainly not going to win any minds over with that hate-filled comment. While I’m not sure you’re willing to listen to reason, a couple things you said need to be addressed:
1) Taoists and Buddhists are considered atheists because they don’t believe in a god or gods, so they fit under the classification of spiritual atheists.
2) I can assure you that Kate and I are real, as is our relationship and the story. If you don’t believe me, ask Hemant, he’s spoken to us both on the phone on more than one occasion. We’re practically pals. It’s also an insult to Hemant if you think he made this up just for shits and giggles.
3) I’m the one who believes in Sky-God (TM), not Kate, and last time I checked there are no evil spirits in me (unless you count tequila as an evil spirit, in which case I did have an evil spirit in me on New Year’s Eve).
4) Thankfully we live in a free country where “this a-holes” can have kids if they want to and raise them as they see fit. And we can vote! Oh the horror of freedom and liberty!!!
Siamang said,
January 4, 2008 at 12:01 pm
Erik,
Thanks for noticing that we aren’t all like Adam Hall. Thanks for answering him with lightness and grace, it expresses well, I think, why you get along so well with your gal.
Sorry your parents are kind of jerks about this. Actually, sorry society is kind of jerkish about this stuff. You seem to have the right makeup to get past that… good for you!
AnneMarie said,
January 5, 2008 at 8:54 pm
What an interesting post!
Erik-I am a follower of Jesus Christ and I was just wondering what your thoughts are on 2 Corinthians 6:14 which states that a believer should not be yoked with one who does not believe.
CHRIS said,
January 8, 2008 at 10:32 pm
This is crazy. This was like reading my life story. I am an atheist and my girlfriend is christian. The way the parents acted was very simaler to my situation. But, like the article says, “If an interfaith relationship with two passionate people is going to work, they say, you can’t be under the delusion that you will change your partner. Not when it comes to faith.”
This is a realization that took six years for my girlfriend and I to figure out.
Kate said,
January 19, 2008 at 8:36 pm
Working my way backwards in the comments…
CHRIS - Oh wow, I’d love to talk to you about your relationship!! Glad to see that others are on the same path.
It helps!
AnneMarie - When I first read that passage, I burst into tears. It was only after Erik and I (mostly him, actually) researched the history behind Paul’s words that we realized how it needs to be interpreted. As in, Paul was speaking to a specific audience (Christians in Corinth) about a specific “type” of non-Christians. Also, Erik doesn’t take the Bible to be the absolute literal word of God, so it’s not a command.
Miller - I won’t reveal WHICH undergrad I went to
since I do love my alma mater, but let’s just say it was a state school. As in, a public university. Which made it all the more shameful for the banner to be hung. It actually got approval!!!
grazatt - My brother is a Quaker. Interesting story, actually. A high school project inspired him to explore various faiths. He visited a Sikh church, a Circle of Friends meeting, a Catholic church, an Episcopalian church, a Greek Orthodox Church, a Jewish temple, and an Islamic worship service. For each religious group he went to a worship service and spent a day doing community service with/for the group. He even did the entire month of Ramadan. Read the Bible, Qur’an, and other religious texts. He really liked the Quakers and still attends meetings in Boston.
Linda - the question you asked your husband is an interesting one. I think it’s something that matching-faith couples take for granted - that beliefs will never change. And if they do…well, what happens then?! Would the other person still love the one who changed? In a way, the “cons” of having an interfaith relationship are balanced by a pro - any change in belief with Erik and I really couldn’t ruin us. We already love each other with differing beliefs, so if there’s a change, it could be in a direction that would make us the same, and if there’s no change, oh well.
Bart - do I believe in an afterlife? Hmm, good question. Following my skeptic tendencies that led me down this atheist path…I’d have to say “I’m not sure”. There’s no way to tell. It doesn’t seem very logical, but I have no proof to say otherwise. I’m not quite sure we know all there is to know about consciousness, etc. So, I’m not sure yet. Guess I’ll find out someday!
Jeff - thanks for the encouragement! Again, it’s good to know that others have made this work.
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