I suppose I could seem like a real ignorant person if i were to really say science is completely false. Who can argue with some proofs it gives us. I just think that many “moderns” or “empiricists” put way too much stock in it.

I don’t see you explaining why we shouldn’t. The thing creationists don’t understand about science, and the thing you don’t understand about science, is that science is a) not a worldview, and b) does not claim absolute truth. Science is a movement towards absolute truth, an end goal that most scientists understand will likely never be reached. But *all* scientists understand that we certainly don’t know everything. The reason I say you don’t understand this is because you talk of “faith in science,” and that’s simply silly. One doesn’t put faith in science; one sees empirical observation that supports reality. That’s the opposite of faith.

But dont you see what happens? The same thing that happened with ignorance prior to Des Cartes, something we believe does us a few favors, and then we begin to think that within this alone is everything we ever need.

Science has done us “a few favors”? A large number of the people you know wouldn’t be alive if not for science, and you’re talking to us thanks to science (certainly not thanks to any god).

If you can name one good reason that science isn’t “everything we ever need” – which I suppose in your mind means we should accept some kind of witches’ brew of science and spirituality, where I guess we’d be rational six days a week and then ignore reality every Sunday – I’ll take you seriously.

Completely eliminate religion and put all faith in Science, and the Scientists will pile up wealth just like the church in the Holy Roman Empire and other societies that give all power to the church.

That’s an apples and oranges situation if I ever saw one. Do you honestly think scientists could form some kind of elite upper class that oppresses the rest of society? The reason it’s an apples and oranges situation is because, unlike religion, science is something that gives the rest of society tangible benefits. Science gives people medicines and computers and a million other things that actually have an effect on every part of their lives. Religion gives people some abstract notions of gods and afterlives, but ultimately the people are going to have to return to reality and make a living to feed themselves. Science helps them make that living – it gives farmers their tools, doctors their techniques, and it gives everyone shelter and clothes. Religion does none of that. Science is so much a part of society that, unlike religion, it can never be above society.

As far as that being the reason we don’t still live in caves – well I think we started out primitive and tried on our own to build a great empire. God squashed that because we were doing it for our own sake and our own name – and not for his.

Oh cool, you not only reject empiricism, you reject accepted history, too, in favor of a history that has no evidence going for it whatsoever.

My ancestors (the spiritual ones – I am not ethnically Jewish) were slaves and then desert wanderers

They must have been ninja wanderers or something, given that they left no archeological evidence.

I believe the Lord of the Universe established them as a prosperous, powerful nation for the purpose of creating a better living situation for all people on earth.

Oddly, the Lord waited until 1948 to do so, and I’m sure the Lebanese really appreciate that better living situation Israel has given them.

This empire is growing, and it is the job of people who believe this story to work to make everything better.

Really? All of them? Every single Jew and Christian is a selfless soul who gives time and money to charities and volunteer organizations?

Not just tell people “truth,” but to protect the environment, to feed the poor, to care for the sick, and to make the world a better place.

I think you’re confused. Science protects the environment and cares for the sick. Religious institutions do rain dances or things of equal value such as prayer.

One day this world will become a perfect empire. where all citizens understand this story. Then things will be the way he hoped they would be before mankind choose itself over its creator.

That might seem a bit far fetched, but I really believe it explains alot about the world I live in. not everything, but the most important stuff anyway. When I start to think it explains everything, then I am dangerous.

I’m seriously curious as to where you get this crap, given your feelings about silly things like “evidence.”

However I am still uncomfortable with what little I understand of post modernism, since it seems to say that all propositions are of equal credibility. In my mind that makes things pretty mushy and fuzzy. There are an infinite number of idiotic propositions, and buried amidst them are a far smaller number of useful propositions. Do we really have to consider them all equally?

Siamang, you are right modern empiricism has helped us to make some tremendous contributions where previous purely mystical efforts were understandably pointless. But dont you see what happens? The same thing that happened with ignorance prior to Des Cartes, something we believe does us a few favors, and then we begin to think that within this alone is everything we ever need. That is why some people refuse to go the Doctor and others refuse to believe in a diety, they wrongly believe the system they have put their faith in holds every answer. Unless this system speaks about a particualr thing, they completely ignore it.

You are right mysticism often piles up wealth and power in the hands of the mystic, but the way i see it, every system in human history does the same thing. The person with the power piles up wealth. The Soviet Union had no real religion to speak of, yet those who held power still managed to pile up wealth in their own hands. Dont read what I am not saying, I am not blaming those dirty atheists that ran the country, I am blaming the human heart. Completely eliminate religion and put all faith in Science, and the Scientists will pile up wealth just like the church in the Holy Roman Empire and other societies that give all power to the church.

Richard, you said skepticism was born way back with the Shaman and the boars tooth. You might be right, Part of me would like to think so, but at the time there weren’t so many competing worldviews. The first guy to come up with a reason to explain why things were the way they were probably got a lot of clout and wealth as well.

As far as that being the reason we don’t still live in caves – well I think we started out primitive and tried on our own to build a great empire. God squashed that because we were doing it for our own sake and our own name – and not for his. He decided to call a man named Abraham for the purpose of creating an empire of his own. My ancestors (the spiritual ones – I am not ethnically Jewish) were slaves and then desert wanderers, I believe the Lord of the Universe established them as a prosperous, powerful nation for the purpose of creating a better living situation for all people on earth. This empire is growing, and it is the job of people who believe this story to work to make everything better. Not just tell people “truth,” but to protect the environment, to feed the poor, to care for the sick, and to make the world a better place. One day this world will become a perfect empire. where all citizens understand this story. Then things will be the way he hoped they would be before mankind choose itself over its creator.

That might seem a bit far fetched, but I really believe it explains alot about the world I live in. not everything, but the most important stuff anyway. When I start to think it explains everything, then I am dangerous.

Am i always going to be trying to tell you why my brother’s word are so screwed up?

Yes, I’m afraid it looks like you will always have to, because so many of your brethren just repeat what they have been told generation after generation, and their only new work is to come up with more distended defenses for their old assumptions. They have defined their willful ignorance as faith and have defined that as a primary virtue. I am very grateful for your efforts, as frustrating as they are, to expand their horizons.

You on the other hand actually look at the world around you and think. You don’t squelch your intelligence. However you still seem to not fully allow yourself to follow your looking-and-thinking wherever they lead you if they stray too far beyond those same old assumptions.

One thing on which I must differ with you:

Now let me just say that modernism (which is fundamentally rational) brought to rise two important things. first is atheism and second is secularism. well truth be told, its probably the the other way around.

Oh it’s much older than that. Skepticism was born the first time a Paleolithic shaman claimed that the boar’s tooth in his hand had magical powers. Atheism was born the moment that same shaman claimed that the biggest tree in the forest had a spirit living in it. One or two of the tribe didn’t assume that was true, though they probably kept it to themselves. There have always been people who have withheld belief in the invisible, intangible and unproven claims of others until if and when they see convincing evidence. They are why we don’t still live in caves.

I’m a member of an evangelical Christian small group and the other members truly believe that the world is divided between two groups:
1: Christians who care about other people and
2: “Pagans” who only care about themselves. They understand “Pagans” as meaning heathens or infidels.

Letters like yours can help explain that the world is not exactly like they have been led to believe.

Jeff, your number 1 and 2 above represent the evangelical mindset that I am familiar with (and used to share). Thank you so much for understanding that those arguments are fallacies; and thank you for being interested in helping dispel those myths.

Atheism will make much better headway in achieving understanding with the help of sympathetic Christians and other religious people who are willing to step out of their comfort zones.

The reality is that the whole world is God’s and there is no “sacred secular distinction.” this false dichotomy led to all the inconsistencies that atheists point out. So in short, I blame the practices of the church over the last couple centuries for the rise of atheism over that time.

I appreciate where you’re coming from, Jared.

But see it from my point of view, and these are some pretty self-convinced statements of yours.

Ah, the “reality” is that the whole world is God’s. Glad you’ve got that mainline to “reality” and know it to be God’s. Hey, for a post-modernist, that’s a pretty modernist thing to say!

“this false dichotomy led to all the inconsistencies that atheists point out.”

The problem with religion is that it has no way to tell a true assertion from a false assertion. Without falsifiability, religion can have no utility for discovering truth. All it has is assertion, argument from authority and appeals to emotion.

Often I ask: by what method can one determine a true theological belief from a false theological belief in such a way that two people from different cultures and backgrounds can independently verify the veracity of the claim?

I have never gotten a satisfactory answer. I believe the lack of a sufficient answer should be the clue to all that there’s something fundamentally wrong with any religion that makes a truth claim.

So in short, I blame the practices of the church over the last couple centuries for the rise of atheism over that time.

It could also be thousands of years of trying to heal lepers by sprinkling holy water and mumbling incantations only to have empiricism beat Jesus at his own game and cure the entire planet of leprosy. Empiricism (something you might deride as “modernism”) has the utility of actually being able to pile up positive contributions, whereas mysticism (as far as I can see) has only the utility of consolidating social and economic power within the mystics’ caste.

But I could be wrong. Help me see it if I am.

I loved your letter. Its very well written and explains atheism very nicely. To bad we can’t send it to every Religious person on the planet…

Do you give your permission for other bloggers to post it on their websites to amplify its message?

I’m a member of an evangelical Christian small group and the other members truly believe that the world is divided between two groups:
1: Christians who care about other people and
2: “Pagans” who only care about themselves. They understand “Pagans” as meaning heathens or infidels.

Letters like yours can help explain that the world is not exactly like they have been led to believe.