Posted by Hemant Mehta in I never know how to react (or whether to react at all) when I see Gideon Bibles in my hotel rooms.
That may not be an issue anymore.
Hotel room Bibles are on the outs:
Unlike traditional hotels, the 10-year-old [Soho Grand Hotel in Manhattan] has never put Bibles in its guest rooms, because “society evolves,” says hotel spokeswoman Lori DeBlois. Providing Bibles would mean the hotel “would have to take care of every guest’s belief.”
The article, from Newsweek, says that “the number of luxury hotels with religious materials in the rooms has dropped by 18 percent” since 2001.
So, if Bibles are gone, what is taking their place?
Condoms.
Edgier chains like the W provide “intimacy kits” with condoms in the minibar, while New York’s Mercer Hotel supplies a free condom in each bathroom. Neither has Bibles.
It gets better:
The new Indigo hotel in Scottsdale, Ariz., a “branded boutique” launched by InterContinental, also has no Bibles, but it does offer a “One Night Stand” package for guests seeking VIP treatment at local nightclubs and late checkout for the hazy morning after.
What’s the reason for the shift?
Leisure travel is up, business travel is down, and younger generations are entering the hotel market.
And a growing number of young Americans — 20% — are non-religious.
There’s an obvious compromise here, though. I’m surprised no one has thought of it. It’ll make everyone happy.
Just offer up Christian condoms.
I’m sure there will be opposition to the removal of Bibles from hotel rooms, but I’m not sure the reason. If the Bible is that important to you, bring your own copy when you travel. They’re not that bulky. Hell, just download it on your iPod.
[tags]atheist, atheism, Bible, Christian, religion, faith, Jesus[/tags]
I’m sitting in a hotel room right this moment, having just torn the place to a shambles looking for those intimacy kits, one night stand packages or even a Christian condom. All I found was some stupid Bible. Guess this isn’t an edgy hotel.
You know, a Christian Condom might not fit well unless your member was shaped like a cross, and that could be rather uncomfortable for your partner, unless of course you’re your own partner, in which case you could use both hands and it could be an auto-menage a trois. Boy, those Christians can sure be edgy!
I’m just giddy at the thought of utterly shocked and faux-offended fundies ranting about how “taking God out of our hotel rooms” will lead to Satanism.
I don’t make a practice of staying in hotels; my idea of the ideal vacation destination is a state park, sleeping in my camper, and I haven’t needed to travel much on business in the last few years. However, when I did do a lot of business travel, I decided that the Gideons had a good idea. I would bring an inexpensive paperback copy of my favorite English translation of the Tao Te Ching along, and leave it in the room with the Gideon Bible. At least a few people would then have the option of being inspired by sensible philosophy as an alternative to religious bs.
I have toyed with the idea of leaving a “recommended reading” slip in hotel bibles, pointing to a few of the more ‘interesting’ verses, but I never got around to it, and I also don’t stay much in hotels these days. Anyone got one available?
To see those Bibles as catering to Christians is a common misunderstanding. While some hotels might be seen as “care of [some] guests’ belief” and not others… the fact is the free Bibles are not placed in rooms for comfort of Christians: but for evangelism.
The Gideons, who put the Bibles there, are missionaries. A “real” Christian is assumed to be carrying his book (or iPod) with him. It’s there for the travelling hordes of Godless Heathens that might show up in a room and wonder why they feel so lonely. The Gideon Bibles have helpful “how to get saved” passages underlined and information about where to look in the book to see “What to do if you’re tempted…” etc.
It’s a form of absentee-evangelism, which last drives me up a wall, to be honest. It’s like the Gideons have been leaving little spiritual time bombs in hotel rooms in the hopes they will go off and the Hotels have been complying for quite a few decades. In that last sense these are “Catering to Christians” - but only a very specific sort of Christian that has a very specific agenda.
I’m quite happy to see the Bibles go - and think that, really, just a directory of community services (including available spiritual options, perhaps with crisis counselling 24 hour numbers) in the Hotel is all that any traveller should expect.
From their website:
I assume that those would be Protestant rather than Catholic condoms?
Don’t real Christians always carry a bible with them anyway? Seems like they wouldn’t need the hotel to provide one.
Hmmm, I stayed at the Mariott a few years ago, and they had a copy of the book written by the founder. Actually, it was interesting reading.
I’d propose having copies of The God Delusion in the hotel?
Awesome. I bet there is a lot more sex in hotels than Bible-readin’.
Hwu is probably right about those Bibles being there to get lonely, vunerable people, because happy, secure people don’t need religion. Same reason they are handing them out to prisons and hospitals. A captive, depressed audience is what these guys thrive on.
The last time I was at a hotel, it was run by people with a statue of a Hindu god on the counter, but I think there was a Bible anyway. Kind of strange. As an atheist, if I suddenly decided to own a hotel, I would not stock them. Maybe I’d sell them at a gift shop, though. Just for my own amusement, to see if anyone ever bought one.
I don’t know if I will notice any difference. I never paid any attention before to whether or not there was a Bible in the room. I guess after a while it just becomes part of the fixture for me. I don’t know. Then again, the last time I stayed in a motel was 4 years ago.
I’m sorry. Maybe I’m showing my “fundie stripes” here, but exactly HOW is replacing Bibles with condoms showing that society has evolved, rather than regressed? I’m somewhat indifferent to Bibles being placed by the Gideons, but CAN see the advantages. However, placing condoms in lieu (is that spelled correctly?) of Bibles doesn’t necessarily say anything GOOD about our society. It actually shows a social irresponsibility. It would assume that every person entering a hotel room is married to the person they enter with, which we all know is not the case. And while many are afraid of people being influenced by such an archaic book found in a drawer, how much more are people influenced by the availability of condoms and “One Night Stand” packages? This is not a sign of evolution, but a sign society and the companies that cater to society are becoming more debased. Seriously? A “One Night Stand” package? That screams, “I have NO morals!” Are atheists rooting for meaningless sex–as if sex were something to be toyed with? As if meeting and having sex with a complete stranger because it will be safe is somehow evolution? I don’t think the majority of atheists feel that way. Not the ones I’ve met who get pissed every time they’re referred to as the reason society is falling apart at the seams.
Truth be told, there are implications on either side of the equation. There are beliefs these hotels are catering to on both sides of the aisle, both religious and philosophical. They are acting as if the replacement of Bibles with condoms and “One Night Stand” packages were made in a vacuum, devoid of belief or consequences. And whether they like it or not, they are implicated in the actions that take place because of it. My thoughts, if you don’t want Bibles in your rooms, fine. Let people bring their own. But, don’t look at the provision of condoms as human evolution. If anything, condoms STOP human evolution as it stops human procreation. Let people bring their own condoms, too.
Wouldn’t this mean that evolution deniers (aka creationists) would be pro-birth control?
Would you rather they have a one night stand and take something home to their wife? Or vise versa.
Not that everyone does that, not even atheists, but the point is, condoms also help to prevent disease, not just pregnancy. It is more responsible than using nothing, IMO.
You cannot stop people from having sex. That’s their decision. Condoms are not a ticket to having sex, but rather it is saying, “IF you are going to do it, use this to help prevent adverse affects.”
Few people even bother with the Bibles, unless they are ultra religious and I hate to tell you this, but the ultra religious are in the minority, which is a good thing because if we listened to them, we’d advance no where. We would stagnate with superstition.
Few people even bother with the Bibles, unless they are ultra religious
——–
Furthermore, such people carry their own Bibles anyway. Besides, the Guideon versions are the out dated King James Version (last I checked) and there are many better translations out there.
I still read the Bible from time to time (I enjoy some of the historical debate over it) and prefer the New Revised Standard Edition.
I’m also continuously amazed that people believe that condoms “stop” procreation. This is not true. Their effectiveness is not 100%. Put is on wrong or if there is a defect in the condom and the woman could end up pregnant. It is a falacy to believe they are foolproof and “stop” pregnancy. They only prevent. Thus why it is called “safer” sex, not “safe” sex.
Mriana,
You’ve created a false dichotomy, because I’d rather not have a one night stand. And the hotel should not be marketing them and then thinking they’ve covered themselves legally and ethically by providing people with condoms.
Yes, you’re not going to stop people from having sex. But, the availability of condoms promotes it, just as the Bible clearly promotes the Christian faith–and in your beliefs, superstition. Why people think one thing’s (the Bible) presence is dubious but another thing’s (condoms) are somehow neutral in nature.
And, for the record, more people bother with Bibles than people would think. And the “ultra-religious,” as you put it, are clearly NOT in the minority, as evidenced by much of the commenting on this site. Atheism is on the rise, but is still a niche market compared to the “ultra-religious” running around. And to say we’d advance nowhere by listening to those of a religious bent is to deny the evidence of history. Yes, religion HAS been used for evil. But, on the whole, it has been used for much more good than evil and has advanced society further than atheism ever has. (This is not to say atheism couldn’t, it simply doesn’t have an established track record. As a matter of fact, any student of history knows that atheism coupled with any number of philosophical outlooks–in terms of atrocities in the world–has just as good a record as religion does when it comes to atrocities committed.) These are all, of course, blanket statements and ought not be considered to settle any matter as intricate as this as definitive.
What are the avantages? More money to the church when scared, depressed people become Christian?
Because having sex with condoms is irresponsible? Funny, that’s not how most people feel- most feel that condomless sex leading to pregnancy and STDs is worse. But, you know, however you roll.
I had access to condoms years before I had sex. They are available, without a judgemental pharmasist, in all pharmacies and many grocery stores, of which I was allowed into even at a young age. And from the quote about the One Night Stand package, that seems to be aimed at people who like to go to clubs, which aren’t necessarily the same people who are having actual one night stands.
I dare you to find me one hotel guest who decided to have sex solely because he or she didn’t want that condom to go to waste. Come on, I dare you.
Yeah! They shouldn’t even sell those damn nightclub-goers condoms! Give them VD! That’ll teach them to dance! Everybody cut loose, footloose….
I am. I am still young, so I haven’t done so yet, but you better believe that meaningless sex is on my list of things to do before I die.
I don’t think I am the reason society “is falling apart” and I don’t necessarily agree that it is. I absolutely don’t think that casual sex is the downfall of society, nor do I think a condom means that people are having casual sex as opposed to commited relationship sex and/or water balloons. You are making a lot of assumptions here, dude.
So if I go have passionate, unmarried sex in a hotel, my hotel owner is going to go to hell with me? Sorry, then, to several property owners I have condemned to hell. Ooops.
That word, I do not think you know what that means.
Hey, Aren’t you guys all supposed to be at church, instead of here talking about condoms?
I gave my presentation today at church.(first time I ever spoke in front of them) It was surprisingly painless. Aren’t you proud of me? I thought of all of you, and it gave me courage… Thanks!
Hemant, you come up with some good stuff… I missed that old post on Christian condoms. Good one! I’ll send the link to all of my Christian friends. (ha ha)
Richard Wade, you are hilarious! I almost fell off my chair laughing! One question though, young man! Why would you be looking for condoms in your hotel room, anyway, huh?
Now, don’t make me come over there and hit you over the head with my Bible… 
I personally have no preference regarding the Bibles in the hotel rooms. It’s neither here nor there. It’s no different than a piece of decoration to me. Now, condoms… That could prove to be actually practical and useful. Why not? The existence of condoms in the hotel rooms will not change our decisions about sex. You can choose not to use them, just as you can choose not to look at the Bible.
Sex in itself is not bad. Every time someone brings up the subject of sex, someone always starts talking about morals. Why is that? Sex is one of the most beautiful gifts that God gave us. We are the ones who twist it and make it bad by being obsessed over it and allowing it to have power over us. We either idolize it or we’re fearful of it.
Do you know that many (a large percentage) teenagers do not consider oral sex to be sex? They still call themselves a virgin as long as there was no actual intercourse. Why do you think that is? I believe it is a desperate attempt to justify a behavior that cannot be avoided because of raging hormones. The education system tries to use fear tactics and bully them into not having sex, but it does nothing but confuse our teens. People just don’t get it.
Here, again, is a perfect example of closed-minded people only treating a symptom rather than the root cause of the problem. I truly believe that if we try to understand the hearts of these kids through communication and validation, the real problems will resolve themselves. Sex is not the problem. Their pain, which is ignored, is the real problem.
No I have not. I did not accuse you of sleeping around. I just said people do.
No the Bible does not. I never once took notice of the Bible in hotel rooms and if it was brought to my attention, I never once picked it up to read it. So, the Bible does not promote anything. Nor do condoms.
You also have a very bad misconception of atheism too.
Linda said:
Amen, Sister! You said it.
For the record Calvin, medical science says that unprotected sex not only possibly cause pregnancy, but also STDs. Condoms help for safer sex. I’ve divorced two men and in the interim, I’ve been celebate. Not because of religious reasons, but because of medical science. However, IF I were so inclined to sleep with someone I felt I truly loved, I’d use a condom to prevent disease. Again, that is because of medical science (an education) not because of religion.
There is no sin in sex, but it is immoral to go around having unprotected sex for many reasons. Maybe you need to lighten up a little and read some good Biblical SMUT! I suggest Song of Solomon. Song of Solomon is LOADED with SEX! I recommend reading Song of Solomon with your wife. Reading it together might help your love life immensely and get something kinky going on that you both may enjoy.
Have fun!
Even stranger is hotels that have both the Gideons bible and condoms.
My latest bit of fun is to put one of these inside the bible, then hide the bible.
By the way, Calvin, having sex with someone who isn’t one’s spouse isn’t necessarily immoral … likewise, “one night stands” aren’t necessarily immoral either. But it is unethical to not use protection when having sex and not specifically planning, wanting, and being prepared to have a child nine months later.
A friend of mine visiting Southern California found in his bedside table three holy books: a Gideon Bible, a Book of Mormon, and a collection of Buddhist Sutras. Someone took the time to write a long essay about how the Buddhist book would lead the reader to hell.
Oh brother!
“Understand the hearts of these kids”? What? It’s not their hearts that are getting them into trouble. Sex is not the problem–how we raise kids in our culture is the problem. Specifically, they’re ready to make babies and we’re still treating them like babies. That’s the problem.
You’re not talking about cheating on a spouse, right?
Hmm, I thought I submitted a comment earlier but hours later I aint seeing it.
Calvin, hi, nice to have you here expressing your opinions. While it is good to hear your thoughts, I think that one of them is blatantly wrong.
The availability of condoms do not promote human sexuality. The human brain is the only thing people need in order to want to have sex. What condoms do promote is having sex in a safer manner. Which most everyone on here seems to think is a good thing.
Do you disagree? If so, let us know why.
To put a finer point on it, it doesn’t take any higher brain function to desire sex. Nature has made sex pretty foolproof by making it nearly a autonomic response. The real brain power comes in the choice to use protection for yourself and your partner. The only catch is that you’ve got to plan ahead. You know, like condoms in a hotel room.
I agree with Darryl.
Yeah it seems…pretty obvious to “any student of history” (sorry for using your phrase, Calvin) that humans are interested in sex and are willing to do it. In marriage, outside of marriage, with a spouse, with someone else’s spouse, whatever. If you need examples of any of the above, please consult either Congress, a soap opera, or The Bible.
One of the differences between humans and other animals is that we use birth control. And one of the differences between modern society and all previous societies is that now women can be sexually active with both a minimal risk of pregnancy and a legal method of ending any unintended pregnancy.
I think both of these are ways in which humans have “evolved” culturally and socially. I think it’d be great if, one day, no woman had a child she didn’t feel 100% happy and glad to bring into this world. Sadly we’re still a long way away from that day.
Also I went way off topic. My apologies.
The world doesn’t need religion or atheists.
I’m happy and secure without either
I was staying at a hotel in Montreal recently (surrounded by godless socialistic Canadians and separatist Quebecois, to be sure) and was quite amused to discover the “Intimacy Kit” that had been placed next to my bed. It was a nice hotel (Place D’Arms, for the interested), so mine featured not one, but THREE condoms, a packet of lube, and some “cleansing wipes.” All in its own little plastic case. Trés classy. In all sincerity, though, I was pleased to see it, and I’m glad it’s not isolated to a few hotels. Here on campus at Kenyon College, where I now attend school, there are three places on campus which offer free condoms. Unity House, our GLBTQQA “safe space” on campus, also offers flavored condoms, dental dams, and lube, no questions asked. Considering the convenience of free condoms, there’s really no reason for someone not to have one if they’re planning on engaging in sexual activity. If only the powers-that-be would stop throwing our money at programs trying to dissuade people from having sex, and just make condoms as available in the “real world” as they are on some campuses.
Cue jokes about the potential reliability of government-issued condoms…
As a Christian, I would just like to say that I have very rarely used a hotel Bible. I normally carry my own with me. I’ve never read a conversion story which began, “I started my walk with the Lord four years ago when I picked up that hotel Bible and read from the book of Romans. . . .” So I’m neutral on the whole issue of hotel Bibles.
The one night stand packages are a different story. They encourage responsible sex, I’ll agree to that, but the point is that they still encourage sex. Speaking from both a moral perspective and a safety perspective, sex should be only between a man and his wife. Sleeping around the way everyone does these days just creates serious problems in the marriage later–as I’m unfortunately able to verify for you personally. I used to be glad I slept around and “got it out of my system,” but now that I’m married I wish I had waited for her. I read an article recently that said that the “seven year itch” is now coming in five years. I credit increased promiscuity before marriage with that statistic, and I’m probably right. I know I’d be far less likely to “itch” had I not made my rounds prior to marriage, and I’m sure that there are others just like me. It’s the whole idea of knowing what you’re missing out on–I think it’s easier for someone to not know what he’s missing out on in this case. That person is far more likely to stay faithful.
I’m not saying I won’t stay faithful, just that it will be harder.
I’d be all for The God Delusion being in hotel rooms. That way I could read it without having to spend actual money on it.
Appearance by Bill Donahue on talk show to denounce “War on Christians in Hotels” in 3… 2…
Cory,
As someone who is not married, I am not going to comment on seven or five year itches, since I am not likely to have either anytime in the nearish future. The only opinion of yours I will comment on directly is
My question is: what increased promiscuity before marriage? Research shows that sex before marriage has been happening in this country at roughly the same rate for the last 50 years. To be lazy and quote from an online article,
“Researchers say that though the likelihood that Americans will have sex before marriage hasn’t changed significantly since the 1950s, people are now waiting longer to get married. So they are sexually active and unmarried for longer than in the past.”
So, I don’t think the “increased promiscuity” you think exists is real. This suggests that something else is to blame for five year itches. Perhaps people have realized that marriage doesn’t need to be a lifetime commitment?
You know, long ago I stopped worrying about what other people are and aren’t doing in the bedroom.
I can’t control “people”, and as long as nobody’s complaining that they’re getting hurt, I say have at it.
Yes, we MUSTN’T USE those parts of the body. They are not toys!!!
To quote Woody Allen, “Sex inside of love is the greatest thing in the world. Sex outside of love is the second greatest thing in the world.”
As I said, I’m not big on telling people what they should and shouldn’t do if nobody’s complaining about their own personal treatment. I don’t tell people if they should or shouldn’t have sex. I’m even one more step removed from attempting to socially engineer a change in adult behavior by placing or not placing condoms in hotel rooms.
We’re stuck in the middle of a terrible war. People of all religions seem to want to destroy each other. The planet is about to undergo a rapid climate change to rival the last ice age, and we’re sitting here worried about if people in hotels have sufficient lube.
Karen says:
I am a frequent business traveller, and I always find a copy of the Gideon’s Bible and sometimes the Book of Mormon in my room. I am not offended. I figure these Gideons are privately funded, and they can distribute whatever they wish.
But I like Karen’s idea. I have gotten into the habit of placing a professionally printed copy of Robert Ingersoll’s essay on Secularism on top of the Gideon Bible in every hotel room I stay in. It is short, to the point, and I find it pretty inspiring. On the bottom of the essay is the web address to more of Ingersoll’s writings on infidels.org
I guess that is as close as I will ever get to atheist evangelism. Hopefully somebody in the future in some hotel room will find it inspiring.
Darryl,
That’s what I said, Darryl. Pay attention! I said sex is NOT the problem. All of today’s problems involving teens, including sex and pregnancy, are only the symtoms resulting from how they are treated by their parents, peers, and society, for that matter. I talk to teenagers every day. I know what goes on in their world and how they view it. Many of them are in pain of not being able to communicate with their parents. Some of them are even rejected by their peers. They feel trapped and alone. I know it too well, because I’ve been there — very painfully so. They want to be understood and validated… and loved. I’m sorry to disagree with you, but it IS their broken and rejected hearts that get them in trouble. Do you have teenagers? Or have you been that teenager who is in pain and crying out for attention?
Cory,
If two people who are not married enter a hotel room, chances are they have already decided to have sex. I don’t think the one night stand packages or the condoms will influence anyone’s decision about sex. This is the same line of thinking that if our kids are exposed to atheism, they will become atheists; and if they are exposed to homosexuality, they will become homosexuals. What kind of twisted logic is that? Christians are supposed to be freedom people, not fear-filled people…
Okay, I can admit when I’m wrong. Given this, I could easily credit our highly sensual culture which removes more and more taboos everyday. It’s okay for women to dress in clothes that cover only the essentials. Television shows edgier and edgier things with each sweeps week.
Perhaps the problem is what society tolerates, rather than what individuals actually do.
Couldn’t offering these things clinch the decision that they’re going to have premarital sex? Why not embrace a morality that teaches premarital sex is taboo?
Yes, people will still have sex. I agree that safe sex is better for everyone involved. But why must society not only tolerate it, but cater to it?
Now, you just agreed that, sure, a majority of Americans have premarital sex. And that the relative percentage hasn’t changed much in ~50 years. But you, apparently, would still like to teach that such activity is taboo.
Hmm.
This, to me, doesn’t seem very constructive.
But I’ll let the more mature people in this forum discuss this more. For some reason I agree heavily with Siamang’s want to just leave this alone. Adults should be able to make up their own minds about whether or not they want to engage in sexual conduct. I choose yes, with (shock!) an unmarried partner who is a fellow atheist. The horror…the horror…
As Siamang said, I don’t worry about what other people are doing in their bedrooms, and I certainly don’t care to know the details, except insofar as it involves a public health risk. Now, from what the experts have been saying, using a condom is the single best thing you can do to prevent the transmission of STDS which are the only public-health component of this matter. For me, morality begins and ends there. To not use a condom when you ought is immoral. Everything else about sex is fair game.
This is our problem: we make sex “taboo.” We’re so prudish and infantile about sex in our culture. We bring these problems upon ourselves. When teenagers are reminding their parents to practice safe sex, then I don’t think we have a thing to worry about. Let’s eliminate aids in Africa rather than trying to fund abstinence education.
Let’s take sex out of the moral sphere.
You ask the question “why not”? I ask the question “why”?
Why should we teach that premarital sex is taboo? Perhaps premarital sex should be entered into “conscientiously”. But taboo?!?! Taboo like “eating human flesh” is taboo?
By all means, let’s heap a whole bunch more meaningless shame on people… Yes, let’s. Why don’t we make masturbation a taboo too? And might as well make it a taboo for women to wear anything but a burkah, you know, just in case a man not married to her might have his eyes drawn below her neckline?
If we confine the argument to the subject matter at hand: HOTELS, we can ask a more precise question:
Why must companies who sell the use of BEDROOMS and BEDS not only tolerate it, but cater to it?
Heaven forfend… you mean some people are actually having, you know, SEX, in those, GASP, BEDS?!??!?!?!
Oh, the shame of it all.
I think it should be mandatory for all atheists to use condoms, heaven forbid that they should pro-create.
We make sex taboo? Really? I saw an outfit for a toddler that consisted of a really short skirt, a spaghetti-strap top, and it bared the midriff. Are you sure that society makes sex taboo? Because I tend to think that we make it a little too accessible.
If you do an Internet search sometime on anything unrelated to sex, and pornographic pictures show up unless you have SafeSearch activated, then we make sex a little too accessible in our culture.
Your response is quite naive, I think.
It isn’t about making someone ashamed of doing what comes only naturally. It is about setting sex aside and making it something special that one only shares with one’s spouse. It is about elevating sex to something beautiful–an act of love–instead of debasing it by making it something that people just do for fun.
At the risk of being accused of an ad hominem attack, the rest of your post is too stupid to respond to.
It comes from the Victorian age. There were so many Puritans back then.
Cory,
This is the thing that religion has been teaching our society throughout history. It has permeated the deepest corners of our thoughts. But our flesh refuses to comply with the impossible demands that religion puts on us. We become angry and ashamed.
We pass down these “morals” that we, ourselves, could not follow down to our children. They are not stupid. They see the hypocrisy. They look for loopholes to satisfy their desires and still remain acceptable. Yet somehow they find themselves filled with guilt and the fear of being exposed. Layers of shame and denial accumulate until they can no longer remember who they are underneath those layers.
We move through life in this zombie like stage, trying to earn our way to God. That is the religious thinking that keeps us in bondage, striving for perfection that we can never achieve. We live in fear of being exposed, afraid to feel and afraid to be touched… afraid to love.
We should choose to live in freedom, not in fear…
Atheists propagate just like believers–not by sex but by indoctrination.
You’re young, aren’t you, Cory? Have you ever heard the phrase “culture war”? You probably have heard it at church. Lots of evangelicals think we’re in one here in America. Well, what we’re in is a transition from hyper-moralistic, religiously-mandated taboos about all things sexual. Ever wonder why some Muslim women wear those burkas? Ever ask yourself why you’re offended by the all the pornography out there on the internet? What, is sex intrinsically ‘dirty’? Are people who have sex outside of marriage ‘naughty’? Is sex done purely for pleasure sinful? Why do you think sex is so pleasurable? Why does everyone want it, but so many are ashamed to say that? You’re naive. Our culture is obsessed with the illicit nature of sex just because our Christian forebearers made it taboo.
Sex is foundational to human existence and culture; nothing foundational is bad. Grow up.
I’m 30, married, one child, former New Ager-turned-Christian and a recovering sex addict. I’ve watched more than my fair share of porn, and I know first hand the damage that both it and premarital sex has done to my own marriage.
I’m not a young and naive child parroting what I’ve heard in church. I’m the voice of reason who has been there and doesn’t want to see others go down that same path.
Take the time to find out about someone before you make comments. I have grown up, I think now you should take a more mature outlook of sex.
So is murder, does that make murder good?
A) How are people going to find out about you? Did you link us to your mini-biography before you started writing here?
B) …as long as everyone’s saying their ages here, I’m 25. So I might be one of the people in this forum thread who is younger (read: potentially less mature) than you are.
C) Aside from that….I have a succinct suspicion that nobody in here should be grasping for the “I’m the most mature” straw. Unless, like, Jesus shows up. Jesus might be more mature than any of us here since he would be really, really old if he were still alive.
(warning: my statements do not constitute an endorsement of Jesus for President)
also, Should I Really Use My Real Name? , do you say things to be constructive or …are you just being funny?
Since, for example, saying that murder is a foundation of human culture? And comparing sex to murder? Both LOL-tacular.
Random comments to make you smile…. but only generally added on to the back of unsubstantiated comments made by the other ever so slightly too serious commentators…
Why Taboo? Why make something which can be fun, exciting, wholesome, loving, and bring pleasure, (not to mention, a natural desire) a taboo?
Isn’t it better to educate people that sex can be a good thing, but also educate people on the possible physical problems (STDs, HIV, unwanted pregnancy, etc) and emotional problems, and then let them make their own educated decisions? Without any pressure, and providing suitable assistance (condoms, etc) when they do want to go ahead.
As my dad said when I left home “behave your self son, and if you can’t be behave, be careful”
OzAtheist,
Very well stated. And your dad is a wise man.
Not directly, but if you click my name, and then click the ABOUT tab on the top of the blog, you would be able to gather much of that information. Obviously, I’ve posted pictures of my child on my blog (what parent-slash-web-geek hasn’t?). You wouldn’t have been able to gather that I’m 30 nor a recovering sex addict from any of that information; my wife was the only one who knew the recovering sex-addict part. Most of my views are evident from the remainder of the blog entries.
Not what I was going for: just that I was more mature than you gave me credit for.
It really isn’t about making sex itself a taboo, just the premarital part. Keeping sex between two people elevates it to something that, for some reason, everyone on this blog thinks is unhealthy. I think it’s really about you guys wanting to have guilt-free sex with whomever you so desire, without hearing people of my ilk say that it’s immoral to do that.
Awwww but being too serious is so much funnnnn.
But ok, fair enough, I was just wondering where you were coming from… Do you have a serious comment on this issue of whether premarital sex is taboo?
Also, and off topic, and sorry for reading your blogs, but do you have Mass Effect pre-ordered? If so, awesome. If not, what are you doing reading posts here, go pre-order it, it should be exquisite.
Hey again Calvin,
Firstly, yes by clicking the About you link on your linked page, we can tell you’re a dude, and you’re married, and you’re Catholic. And that’s about it.
So the people on this blog who were …basically, shocked by your usage of the word “taboo” to describe sex outside of marriage were, I don’t think, very much out of line to potentially think that you were parroting the Church line. Cuz.. in all honesty you are parroting the RomanCatholicChurch line that sex outside of marriage is baaaad. Your own experiences in life are the reason why you parrot, but you are parroting the RCC party line.
And most (if not all) of us here have heard the RCC view on sex. Maybe because we were raised with it (raises hand) or learned it in school (raises hand) or learned about it through our Christian majority nation. I mean I see no reason why you should be ashamed of parroting the RCC if you believe them. Now if I were, then I’d be worried…
Secondly, the dialogue between you and Darryl went …you said he was being naive, he said you were probably young and needed to grow up, and then you said you were grown up and that he needed to take a more mature outlook of sex. If he’s willing to admit that you’re grown up, are you willing to say that he wasn’t being naive?
Thirdly, people who aren’t sexually conservative (like …I would hazard to say, most atheists) don’t think that keeping sex between two people is unhealthy. I know a few people, religious and not, who have met a person, they fell in love, they had or didn’t have premarital sex, they got married, and that’s been it for their love life so far.
If a person is happy with living that kind of life, then I’m happy for them. Being sexually liberated partially means being happy for people no matter what (healthy and safe) choices they make with their sex lives.
You feel guilty about having premarital sex. I’m sorry you feel that way, and I believe you shouldn’t feel guilty about it, but, I also realize that you and I have different sources of moral values. Your moral values say you’ve been bad. Mine don’t. Well, I mean, unless you killed someone. Then I’m gonna get worried.
You can say that I lead an immoral life. Quite frankly, according to RCC rules…yeah, I do. But the actual, real, conflict between our two worldviews is that you think that sex is dirty if it happens outside of marriage, and I think sex is dirty if its non-consensual. I have the sluttier take on things, I suppose…
Serious comments always get me into trouble… As far as my beliefs on sex go, I think that having one life long partner is probably the best way to go. Of course being married to the only woman I’ve had sex with doesn’t really give me much experience in what is good or bad, but If I relate it to my other passions in life, say gaming, I really wouldn’t want to have more that one sexual partner, because when ever I get a new game, I’m always holding it up against all my other games that I’ve played before, and judging the gameplay, enjoyment etc against my previous experiences… doing that with intimate relationships would drive me nuts.
That’s what they are there for, reading! As for Mass Effect, thats a sore subject matter. I was looking forward to playing it as I was up until a fortnight ago a game reviewer on Microsoft’s Approved Reviewer list, but alas, in their infinite wisdom they decided to cull their lists, and I got removed.
So no more free games for me, and with 3 kids and a wife to happily support, stuff all gaming money!
Of course this might be a good thing, as if I did get sent Mass Effect, I might be tempted to engage is some casual alien sex, and that would only stir up a hornets nest of moral dilemmas….
Hi (:->) My name is Jeff. I read Your interview over the internet and i would like to first offer a correction *(” I don’t know any atheists that are saying, “There is no God, I will never pay attention to the evidence.” I don’t know a single atheist that thinks that way, even though that’s the stereotype. Atheists say, “I don’t believe in God. But if you show me the evidence, I’ll look at it, I’ll think about it.”). An Atheist according to the dictionary has absolutely no belief in God. If you are not sure if there is a God or if you think there might be then again according to the dictionary you would be considered an agnostic. And second *i would like to state that i could not believe in evolution simply because the chances of intelligent life forming from a big bang somewhere in the middle of the universe are astronomically HUGE. From my point of view believing in a universe without intelligent design takes more faith then i could ever have in believing in God. Atheists I commend you on your faith.
I’m sorry if premarital sex damaged your marriage. It didn’t damage mine.. I’ll go on to say that my marriage has been faithfully monogamous for its duration, and while I cannot rerun history another way to see if it would or wouldn’t turn out negatively, I’m happy that I married someone with whom I was sure I was sexually compatable.
Now, assuming we create a society where premarital sex was taboo… you’re asking me to turn the society into one where my romantic relationship with my fiancee was the business of the culture at large. You’re asking me to live in a society that poked its nose into our private lives in order to shun our behavior.
You’re asking me to be part of a society that forbids my behavior so that it could encourage you to police your own behavior.
Sorry. Personal responsibility. It’s not the society’s job to keep you out of trouble with your marriage.
If 95% of American have sex before marriage then why try to make it taboo? Nothing we have done in the past 50 years has worked- not shaming those dirty, slutty girls for getting pregnant, not disrupting access to birth control, not religion, nothing has worked. If there is basically nothing that will stop people from having premarital sex, why should we make it taboo and mess people up for doing something that people are just going to do? Imagine if we made driving taboo. You don’t have to do, some people go their whole lives without doing it, people die doing it…. but people are still damn well going to do it, so we might as well hae speed limits and seat belts.
The Guttmacher quote: Further, contrary to the public perception that premarital sex is much more common now than in the past, the study shows that even among women who were born in the 1940s, nearly nine in 10 had sex before marriage….. According to the analysis, by age 44, 99% of respondents had had sex, and 95% had done so before marriage. Even among those who abstained from sex until age 20 or older, 81% had had premarital sex by age 44.
I am not sure why sex has to mean the same things to everyone, or if it even does mean the same thing to two people every time. For instance, I think all of us adults here can admit there is much joy and pleasure in sex, but each time is its own adventure. Sometimes sex is Serious Business, and sometimes random fun, and sometimes goofy, and sometimes cathartic, and sometimes it about one person or the other person… I don’t see why it can’t be beautiful sometimes and fun othertimes. And how does my fun sex life change your beautiful sex life, if we are to buy into your idea that sex after marriage is beautiful and sex before marriage is fun and never the two shall cross? If I sleep with every person I see tomorrow, will that debase your sex life? And I suppose gay marriage changes your marriage too?
Read a little feminism, one day. Of course we want women to be sexy for the male gaze, always seeming to be available, while actually protecting ye important hymen and therefore the male patriarchial blood line. Its the Madonna/Whore thing our culture does so well- be Britney Spears, in a miniskirt, but damn it, be a virgin too. Think of words used to insult women- whore, slut, tramp, vixen, dyke, cunt- all of them are sexual in nature, implying things about the woman and her sex life. Sex is only ok if it is used to sell products, but its awesome to make jokes about Paris Hilton’s gaping wide vagina, cause god forbid a woman, and not a company, makes money off a woman’s body!
Actually, this just about sums it up. Why should I feel guilty about your morals?
Jeff, you should email Hemant. His email address is somewhere around here. I’m sure he’ll be thrilled to hear about your excitingly original thoughts!
(stops being sarcastic)
SIRUMRM,
Egads it’s so horrible to say I know where you’re going on this.
I’ve been critically told by an ex of mine that love/sex is something that, if you do walk down the road of serial monogamy, you shouldn’t end up loving or lusting after different people in the same way. Cuz if you do…that’s not good, that means you’re looking for a person to fill a void in your life. That means you’re looking for someone to complete you, when the truth be told, being in an actual loving relationship requires two complete people who can then share common interests/goals/excitements/passions/etc. Needing someone else in a “I can’t live without you baaaaby” kinda sense is immature.
(Note: singing the above quoted line will improve your day, I guarantee it.)
I somewhat agree with her analysis. But back to the video game analogy, different partners, like different genres of games, should challenge you in different ways, some will test your dexterity, some will make you think, some will make you run to a strategy guide for advice…wait this analogy went too far… to get back to topic… I can say I like things about a lot of games but it’s tough for me to say that any one game is better than the rest, by far. Trying to compare different partners is like trying to compare different genres, I think it’s not worth it.
I’m sorry to hear about your lack of free games, particularly, free games with casual alien sex. I am gonna be really pissed off if the game is 90% casual alien sex and 10% galaxy exploration. Note to everyone else on this forum: I am sorry to even have to mention casual alien sex. I promise I won’t bring it up again.
Jeff wrote:
That’s me. I have absolutely no belief in God. I guess I’m an atheist then.
If you have any evidence, I might change my mind. But I’m guessing you don’t.
Funny you use the word “astronomically”. Do you know what that word means? It means odds as great as the number of stars in the sky.
So the odds against life forming can be literally astronomical, and by definition there would be life somewhere. Makes you think, doesn’t it?
Not faith really. If you’d come here and listen to us, and ask us what we believe, you might learn something. Instead you’ve come here to tell us what we supposedly believe. You’re not going to learn anything that way, Jeff.
Why not approach us as human beings, rather than come here to preach at us, pity us and (predictably) leave? There’s much more wonderful interaction to be had here… we can learn from you and you can learn from us… but you’ll need to start with questions, and stop with telling us what we supposedly believe.
Because you’re incredibly wrong about us. You don’t even know anything about us. How about coming here with listening ears and a welcoming heart? I promise we don’t bite, Jeff.
That sounds like you are using it as an insult. I thought belivers thought highly of the word “faith.” I will take it as a compliment. We’re here to be friends with you, Jeff. Will you be friends with us?
And WELCOME!
Siamang said Funny you use the word “astronomically. Yes i know what the word astronomically means that is why i used it. Siamang said Not faith really. If you’d come here and listen to us, and ask us what we believe, you might learn something. Instead you’ve come here to tell us what we supposedly believe. You’re not going to learn anything that way, Jeff. It sounds like i have struck a cord and it sounds like you have come to a few preconceived notions of your own. I’m not preaching and I’m not judging I’m simply commenting on an interview i had read tilted i sold my soul on eBay and offering my opinion. isn’t that what where all doing on this forum is offering are opinions. Please take the time to ask me questions then draw your opinions . O and by the way that comment on Atheists having faith can you say that does not apply to you . (That was a question not a judgment. take it as you like). I said Atheists I commend you on your faith. Siamang said Atheists I commend you on your faith.That sounds like you are using it as an insult. Not insult humor. would you please elaborate on what you mean by friends and thanks for the welcome i well try and crash the correct forum next time it seems iv’e crashed the one on sex.
cautious said (stops being sarcastic). Sarcasm humor tamato tomato. I so pose it depends on ones point of view. If you really think about it doesn’t it take a certain amount of faith to belevive anything that is not both factual and constant IE gravity.
cautious,
So many things wrong with your post, it’s hard to know where to begin. Well, let’s start with the name. It’s Cory, not Calvin. As for my religious beliefs, I’m Reformed (Calvinist), not Catholic. The church that my wife went to–the one which I eventually became a part of–was not Catholic, though I didn’t specify that carefully enough. I’m a former Catholic, and any quick perusal of my blog entries under the RC category would reveal that. I’ve had regular exchanges with prolific Catholic apologist Dave Armstrong about his labeling of me “anti-Catholic.” In fact, I’m on his “anti-Catholic” page near the bottom.
I’m not ashamed to parrot the views of the RCC, but I want everyone to understand that the parroting comes from hard-won experience, not from just hearing it in church and then coming to a blog and spouting off. I actually have a reason to believe this stuff: I’ve lived through it. I know how destructive any addiction–sex addiction in particular–can be to a marriage. The endless lies, the deceit, the empty promises of seeking help. I don’t want to see other people go through that. I know that sex before marriage has contributed in part to that.
I will admit that Darryl isn’t naive when he shows that he isn’t. I’ve demonstrated that my views are informed and mature. I believe with all of my heart that my take on sex is the healthy one in this comment section.
No, this isn’t sexual liberation. This is postmodernism: everyone’s opinion is as good as anyone else’s. Because of postmodern philosophy, I am unable condemn another person’s lifestyle as subpar even though I can tell you exactly why it isn’t a healthy lifestyle. I’m not happy for people who would choose premarital sex because I know it is a mistake.
I don’t feel guilty about premarital sex. I wish I could go back and change the fact that I engaged in it. That is different than guilt. Since I can’t go back and change it, I can try to prevent someone else from falling into the same trap as I did. God forgives through faith in Christ, and I have made my peace with His judgment by my repentance. If, God forbid, something happens to my wife and I find myself single again, I won’t have premarital sex. Simple as that.
This is the reason we’re talking past each other. We aren’t operating from the same set of morals on sex. On the other hand, I would virtually bet that there are more similarities than differences between our morals (Ps 40:8, Is 51:7, Jer 31:33, Rom 2:15). Which is why it is totally false for you to think that I am saying you lead an immoral life.
Siamang,
I think it is really funny that you are lecturing me on personal responsibility for two reasons. First, I just did a series on my blog where I dismantled the argument that God somehow owes humanity nothing but goodness by focusing on our own personal responsibility for what happens on this planet. Second, I haven’t asserted that society owes me anything for my marriage. My marriage is great and I’m so in love with my wife. My choices have created demons with which I will struggle for the rest of my life, and I wish that I could change that. I’m not playing the victim. I’m trying to play the activist to get this message out.
I’m happy that premarital sex hasn’t yet been a significant detriment to your marriage. I hope that that continues!
Jen,
I knew someone would agree with me on the point that you just want to have guilt-free sex without me saying that it’s wrong. But if my wishes for society don’t affect you in the least, then why the really long post trying to prove to me that it shouldn’t matter? Obviously it does.
That disturbs me greatly. The outfit in question was for a toddler. A young girl, less than three years old. You want her to look sexy and available for the male gaze? That isn’t feminism, that’s gross.
Those are the only two points I care to respond to. The rest seemed way off topic to me.