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	<title>Comments on: Beliefnet.com Interview</title>
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	<description>Atheism with Positivity</description>
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		<title>By: Mike C</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/09/21/beliefnetcom-interview/comment-page-1/#comment-71382</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Sep 2007 01:49:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Mriana, I think you&#039;ve misinterpreted the point I was making above, and most of your post seems to be responding to something entirely different than what I was saying. As I&#039;ve already tried to clarify my point several times now (and apparently failed) I think I&#039;ll just give it up. Peace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mriana, I think you&#8217;ve misinterpreted the point I was making above, and most of your post seems to be responding to something entirely different than what I was saying. As I&#8217;ve already tried to clarify my point several times now (and apparently failed) I think I&#8217;ll just give it up. Peace.</p>
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		<title>By: Mriana</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/09/21/beliefnetcom-interview/comment-page-1/#comment-71300</link>
		<dc:creator>Mriana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Sep 2007 19:34:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/09/21/beliefnetcom-interview/#comment-71300</guid>
		<description>I am taking religion as a minor currently and I have not seen or heard of Ninian Smart&#039;s 7.  Are you attending a secular or a religious college?  Myself, I attend a secular university.  The thing is, the Golden Rule is applicable to atheism too because it is not a religious thing, but rather a necessary rule for society to succeed.  Religion is only a secondary human creation that is applied to society.

BTW, I got the link to appear via email:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninian_Smart

&lt;blockquote&gt;Professor Roderick Ninian Smart (6 May 1927–29 January 2001) was a Scottish writer and university educator. He is considered by many to have been a pioneer in the field of secular religious studies.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;Experience - &quot;Religious experience&quot;, very non-ordinary 
Social - More than one person claiming Experience 
Narrative - Story of Experience for later participants 
Doctrinal - Beliefs, must be rational and logical within entire system 
Ethical - Behaviours that correspond to beliefs 
Ritual - Repeated access to Experience 
Material - Material manifestation for participants &lt;blockquote&gt;

Atheism and Humanism fit into about four of them, but they fit more of what I listed for society.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am taking religion as a minor currently and I have not seen or heard of Ninian Smart&#8217;s 7.  Are you attending a secular or a religious college?  Myself, I attend a secular university.  The thing is, the Golden Rule is applicable to atheism too because it is not a religious thing, but rather a necessary rule for society to succeed.  Religion is only a secondary human creation that is applied to society.</p>
<p>BTW, I got the link to appear via email:  <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninian_Smart" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninian_Smart</a></p>
<blockquote><p>Professor Roderick Ninian Smart (6 May 1927–29 January 2001) was a Scottish writer and university educator. He is considered by many to have been a pioneer in the field of secular religious studies.</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>Experience &#8211; &#8220;Religious experience&#8221;, very non-ordinary<br />
Social &#8211; More than one person claiming Experience<br />
Narrative &#8211; Story of Experience for later participants<br />
Doctrinal &#8211; Beliefs, must be rational and logical within entire system<br />
Ethical &#8211; Behaviours that correspond to beliefs<br />
Ritual &#8211; Repeated access to Experience<br />
Material &#8211; Material manifestation for participants<br />
<blockquote>
<p>Atheism and Humanism fit into about four of them, but they fit more of what I listed for society.</p></blockquote>
</blockquote>
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		<title>By: ash</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/09/21/beliefnetcom-interview/comment-page-1/#comment-71294</link>
		<dc:creator>ash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Sep 2007 19:04:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/09/21/beliefnetcom-interview/#comment-71294</guid>
		<description>ok, if the link still doesn&#039;t come up, wiki Ninian Smart for a brief description...

&lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninian_Smart&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ok, if the link still doesn&#8217;t come up, wiki Ninian Smart for a brief description&#8230;</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninian_Smart" rel="nofollow"></a></p>
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		<title>By: ash</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/09/21/beliefnetcom-interview/comment-page-1/#comment-71293</link>
		<dc:creator>ash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Sep 2007 19:03:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/09/21/beliefnetcom-interview/#comment-71293</guid>
		<description>&#039;defining&#039; religion is highly problematic; most definitions are either too inclusive or exclusive. as a religious student, the model we&#039;ve been taught to use so far (as a best of the bunch kinda yardstick) is Ninian Smart&#039;s 7 dimensional def. - useful &#039;coz it recognises different aspects and functionalities in religion and allows for them to be present in varying degrees. it would be exceedingly difficult to force atheism to fit his definitions for &#039;religion&#039;, but football? maybe...!
&lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninian_Smart&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;defining&#8217; religion is highly problematic; most definitions are either too inclusive or exclusive. as a religious student, the model we&#8217;ve been taught to use so far (as a best of the bunch kinda yardstick) is Ninian Smart&#8217;s 7 dimensional def. &#8211; useful &#8216;coz it recognises different aspects and functionalities in religion and allows for them to be present in varying degrees. it would be exceedingly difficult to force atheism to fit his definitions for &#8216;religion&#8217;, but football? maybe&#8230;!<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninian_Smart" rel="nofollow"></a></p>
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		<title>By: Mriana</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/09/21/beliefnetcom-interview/comment-page-1/#comment-71268</link>
		<dc:creator>Mriana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Sep 2007 17:00:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/09/21/beliefnetcom-interview/#comment-71268</guid>
		<description>If you want more on this topic you can read a review of a book called &quot;The Psychological Roots of Religious Beliefs&quot;:  http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/kenneth_krause/roots.html

&lt;blockquote&gt;According to M. D. Faber&#039;s The Psychological Roots of Religious Belief, although we are born free of religious inclinations, widespread belief in a personal God has its roots in our early childhood development. In infancy, for instance, a child relies on his or her seemingly omnipotent caregiver (a &quot;proto-deity&quot;) to supplicate cries (&quot;proto-prayer&quot;) for nourishment and care. The child is consequently primed to map this process onto a religious narrative complete with its Parent-God. By promoting a religious narrative early on, religious institutions lay the groundwork for religious belief by exploiting an essentially subconscious process before a child has fully developed the ability to reason. None of us are quite &quot;wired for God,&quot; however; the existence of nonbelievers testifies to the possibility of accepting alternative narratives by the time one is exposed to religious ones. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Mind you, this is only a book review and not a section out of the book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you want more on this topic you can read a review of a book called &#8220;The Psychological Roots of Religious Beliefs&#8221;:  <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/kenneth_krause/roots.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/kenneth_krause/roots.html</a></p>
<blockquote><p>According to M. D. Faber&#8217;s The Psychological Roots of Religious Belief, although we are born free of religious inclinations, widespread belief in a personal God has its roots in our early childhood development. In infancy, for instance, a child relies on his or her seemingly omnipotent caregiver (a &#8220;proto-deity&#8221;) to supplicate cries (&#8220;proto-prayer&#8221;) for nourishment and care. The child is consequently primed to map this process onto a religious narrative complete with its Parent-God. By promoting a religious narrative early on, religious institutions lay the groundwork for religious belief by exploiting an essentially subconscious process before a child has fully developed the ability to reason. None of us are quite &#8220;wired for God,&#8221; however; the existence of nonbelievers testifies to the possibility of accepting alternative narratives by the time one is exposed to religious ones. </p></blockquote>
<p>Mind you, this is only a book review and not a section out of the book.</p>
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		<title>By: Mriana</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/09/21/beliefnetcom-interview/comment-page-1/#comment-71260</link>
		<dc:creator>Mriana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Sep 2007 15:57:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/09/21/beliefnetcom-interview/#comment-71260</guid>
		<description>Oh now this gets a bit off the wall, but in the 13th century the mentally ill were considered witches.  Witchcraft was instigated by the powerful Satan of the heretics, and was itself a heresy and denial of God.  Talk about social pressure to conform to Roman rule!  In 1484 Pope Innocent (not so innocent) VIII, went on a witch hunt.  I guess if you didn&#039;t bow to him as Lord, then you were a witch.  :roll:  Not sure what all that has to do with abnormal psychology, but it goes through the whole craziness of Rome imposing religion on others and killing those who would not conform.  So, again, religion is societal and people either conform or face ridicule of some sort.

Ok everything else deals with what I said before about religious ideology being a symptom of mental illness.  Note:  Mental illness is an extreme of the norm.  So, any extreme of anything, even religion, can be a symptom of mental illness.  IF we were to take religion out of society, would it still be a symptom of mental illness?  That&#039;s just something to ponder for those of us who understand psychology, sociology and alike.

Child Development (copyright 1994):

This is where the family unit comes into play. One of the functions of family is to &quot;perform vital services for the society of which it is a part of&quot; and each of the following functions &quot;must be&quot; carried out for a society to survive:

1. reproduction
2. economic services
3. social order: Procedures must exist for reducing conflict and maintaining orderly conduct.
4. socialization:  The young must be trained by mature members to become competent, participating members of society.
5. emotional support: Procedures must exist for binding individuals together, harmonizing their goals, dealing with emotional crises, and fostering a sense of commitment and purpose in each person.

Over the years institutions developed to assist with certian functions, and familiest became linked to larger social structures.  One them being religious institutions.  &quot;Religious institutions supplemented both child-rearing and emotional-support functions by offering family members educational services and set of common beliefs that enhanced their sense of purpose and shared goals (Lerner, Spanier, &amp; Belsky, 1982).&quot;

Again, religion is a social creation to unify, create conformity, and shared values/beliefs.  It is once again a cultural invention.  Religion is not inate to the human being, but rather an indocternation of shared beliefs for a society.  Start at an early age and you instill conformity of the young to the society in which they are being raised.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh now this gets a bit off the wall, but in the 13th century the mentally ill were considered witches.  Witchcraft was instigated by the powerful Satan of the heretics, and was itself a heresy and denial of God.  Talk about social pressure to conform to Roman rule!  In 1484 Pope Innocent (not so innocent) VIII, went on a witch hunt.  I guess if you didn&#8217;t bow to him as Lord, then you were a witch.  <img src='http://friendlyatheist.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif' alt=':roll:' class='wp-smiley' />   Not sure what all that has to do with abnormal psychology, but it goes through the whole craziness of Rome imposing religion on others and killing those who would not conform.  So, again, religion is societal and people either conform or face ridicule of some sort.</p>
<p>Ok everything else deals with what I said before about religious ideology being a symptom of mental illness.  Note:  Mental illness is an extreme of the norm.  So, any extreme of anything, even religion, can be a symptom of mental illness.  IF we were to take religion out of society, would it still be a symptom of mental illness?  That&#8217;s just something to ponder for those of us who understand psychology, sociology and alike.</p>
<p>Child Development (copyright 1994):</p>
<p>This is where the family unit comes into play. One of the functions of family is to &#8220;perform vital services for the society of which it is a part of&#8221; and each of the following functions &#8220;must be&#8221; carried out for a society to survive:</p>
<p>1. reproduction<br />
2. economic services<br />
3. social order: Procedures must exist for reducing conflict and maintaining orderly conduct.<br />
4. socialization:  The young must be trained by mature members to become competent, participating members of society.<br />
5. emotional support: Procedures must exist for binding individuals together, harmonizing their goals, dealing with emotional crises, and fostering a sense of commitment and purpose in each person.</p>
<p>Over the years institutions developed to assist with certian functions, and familiest became linked to larger social structures.  One them being religious institutions.  &#8220;Religious institutions supplemented both child-rearing and emotional-support functions by offering family members educational services and set of common beliefs that enhanced their sense of purpose and shared goals (Lerner, Spanier, &amp; Belsky, 1982).&#8221;</p>
<p>Again, religion is a social creation to unify, create conformity, and shared values/beliefs.  It is once again a cultural invention.  Religion is not inate to the human being, but rather an indocternation of shared beliefs for a society.  Start at an early age and you instill conformity of the young to the society in which they are being raised.</p>
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		<title>By: Mriana</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/09/21/beliefnetcom-interview/comment-page-1/#comment-71254</link>
		<dc:creator>Mriana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Sep 2007 15:28:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/09/21/beliefnetcom-interview/#comment-71254</guid>
		<description>OK obviously this book relates religion with one&#039;s social group (or rather ethnic group) and in the U.S. one is forced to conform with the social norms of society, even in the case of religion.  Thus it is once again associated with society and explains the Religious Reich too (if you ain&#039;t Christian, you get the Bible slammed over your head, esp in the Bible Belt).  The prime example of being force to conform to society is the Native Americans forced conversion to Christianity. It speaks of how Christians used religion to oppressed others over the centuries. Islam, esp in recent years, isn&#039;t doing very much better.

Religion and Basic Values (in summery):

The cultural religion brought over in the early centuries of the U.S. were primarily English and Protestant- Quaker, Anglican, Presbyterian, Congregationalists and Separatists, Puritan, and Baptist is what they list.  They helped to form Separation of Church and State, but the English dominance decreased Catholic, Jewish, and other religions.  So, religion is very cultural.

&quot;Puritanism was important in establishing the &quot;Protestant work ethic&quot; at the center of the value system.  Idleness was regarded as a sin.  So again, it is cultural and the culture is Anglo-Protestant.  Not the Roman Culture or we&#039;d all be Catholic and affiliated with Rome, not Britian. Or if we were an Islamic nation we&#039;d be affiliated with the Middle East.  OR if the Indians had been lucky enough to colonize the U.S., we&#039;d be various sects of Hindus.  The list continues, but it shows that religion is very much a human creation, cultural, and societal.

It speaks of how the Roman Catholic Church has been very important to Italian Americans.  It also discusses the religious cultural aspects of Judaism too.  Again this is cultural.  

Long story short with this book:  Religion is made up of society&#039;s cultural norms.

Therefore, religion itself has nothing to do with morals, but rather one&#039;s culture.  It is a human creation to control society.  So, we could all be atheists and still have many social norms without any established religion.  Religion or a belief in a deity has nothing to do with anything except one&#039;s cultural background.

Up next Abnormal Psychology (Copyright 1994)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK obviously this book relates religion with one&#8217;s social group (or rather ethnic group) and in the U.S. one is forced to conform with the social norms of society, even in the case of religion.  Thus it is once again associated with society and explains the Religious Reich too (if you ain&#8217;t Christian, you get the Bible slammed over your head, esp in the Bible Belt).  The prime example of being force to conform to society is the Native Americans forced conversion to Christianity. It speaks of how Christians used religion to oppressed others over the centuries. Islam, esp in recent years, isn&#8217;t doing very much better.</p>
<p>Religion and Basic Values (in summery):</p>
<p>The cultural religion brought over in the early centuries of the U.S. were primarily English and Protestant- Quaker, Anglican, Presbyterian, Congregationalists and Separatists, Puritan, and Baptist is what they list.  They helped to form Separation of Church and State, but the English dominance decreased Catholic, Jewish, and other religions.  So, religion is very cultural.</p>
<p>&#8220;Puritanism was important in establishing the &#8220;Protestant work ethic&#8221; at the center of the value system.  Idleness was regarded as a sin.  So again, it is cultural and the culture is Anglo-Protestant.  Not the Roman Culture or we&#8217;d all be Catholic and affiliated with Rome, not Britian. Or if we were an Islamic nation we&#8217;d be affiliated with the Middle East.  OR if the Indians had been lucky enough to colonize the U.S., we&#8217;d be various sects of Hindus.  The list continues, but it shows that religion is very much a human creation, cultural, and societal.</p>
<p>It speaks of how the Roman Catholic Church has been very important to Italian Americans.  It also discusses the religious cultural aspects of Judaism too.  Again this is cultural.  </p>
<p>Long story short with this book:  Religion is made up of society&#8217;s cultural norms.</p>
<p>Therefore, religion itself has nothing to do with morals, but rather one&#8217;s culture.  It is a human creation to control society.  So, we could all be atheists and still have many social norms without any established religion.  Religion or a belief in a deity has nothing to do with anything except one&#8217;s cultural background.</p>
<p>Up next Abnormal Psychology (Copyright 1994)</p>
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		<title>By: Mriana</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/09/21/beliefnetcom-interview/comment-page-1/#comment-71247</link>
		<dc:creator>Mriana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Sep 2007 14:56:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/09/21/beliefnetcom-interview/#comment-71247</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t take the Psychology of Religion class, but I wish I did. However, they do briefly cover it in one of them.  I remember reading it recently.  Let&#039;s see if I can put my hands on it again.

OK not the one I was reading, but the Adjustment and Growth text book (copyright page is missing, but I took this class in the early 90s) has a whole section called &quot;One Nation Under Gods&quot; and is discussing the U.S.

In summery, it says &quot;The U.S. is one of the most religious countries in the world (no surprise).  Religion is one of the shapers of human beliefs, attitudes, and behaviours.  People&#039;s religions refect and contribute to human nature.  They (religions) not only provide a sense of people&#039;s place in the universe and moral codes of conduct, they also provide traditions which help people adjust to life cycle events such as birth, marriage, and death.&quot;

So it is very social and the Humanists are not too far off when they say religion fills a social need, thus the Humanist ministers provide Naming Services, marriages, and Funeral celebrations because they are important social events and life passages for the human(s).

The Racial and Ethnic Relations (copyright 1996) has many pages on it, so give me time to summerize it in another post.  I&#039;m sure you don&#039;t want the many pages typed here.  :lol:</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t take the Psychology of Religion class, but I wish I did. However, they do briefly cover it in one of them.  I remember reading it recently.  Let&#8217;s see if I can put my hands on it again.</p>
<p>OK not the one I was reading, but the Adjustment and Growth text book (copyright page is missing, but I took this class in the early 90s) has a whole section called &#8220;One Nation Under Gods&#8221; and is discussing the U.S.</p>
<p>In summery, it says &#8220;The U.S. is one of the most religious countries in the world (no surprise).  Religion is one of the shapers of human beliefs, attitudes, and behaviours.  People&#8217;s religions refect and contribute to human nature.  They (religions) not only provide a sense of people&#8217;s place in the universe and moral codes of conduct, they also provide traditions which help people adjust to life cycle events such as birth, marriage, and death.&#8221;</p>
<p>So it is very social and the Humanists are not too far off when they say religion fills a social need, thus the Humanist ministers provide Naming Services, marriages, and Funeral celebrations because they are important social events and life passages for the human(s).</p>
<p>The Racial and Ethnic Relations (copyright 1996) has many pages on it, so give me time to summerize it in another post.  I&#8217;m sure you don&#8217;t want the many pages typed here.  <img src='http://friendlyatheist.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif' alt=':lol:' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Jen</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/09/21/beliefnetcom-interview/comment-page-1/#comment-71244</link>
		<dc:creator>Jen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Sep 2007 14:40:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/09/21/beliefnetcom-interview/#comment-71244</guid>
		<description>Go for it!  Do they define religion?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Go for it!  Do they define religion?</p>
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		<title>By: Mriana</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/09/21/beliefnetcom-interview/comment-page-1/#comment-71242</link>
		<dc:creator>Mriana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Sep 2007 14:34:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/09/21/beliefnetcom-interview/#comment-71242</guid>
		<description>Will umpteen Psychology textbooks work just as well?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will umpteen Psychology textbooks work just as well?</p>
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