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	<title>Comments on: Religious Education with Warts</title>
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	<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/06/18/religious-education-with-warts/</link>
	<description>Atheism with Positivity</description>
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		<title>By: 20 gram Soul : Morality Part 2: Immoral Religion</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/06/18/religious-education-with-warts/comment-page-1/#comment-50273</link>
		<dc:creator>20 gram Soul : Morality Part 2: Immoral Religion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jun 2007 14:15:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/06/18/religious-education-with-warts/#comment-50273</guid>
		<description>[...] Why, then, do people persist in claiming that religion is the only way to live a moral life? http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/26814.html [&#8617;]http://www.slate.com/id/2167293?nav=tap3 [&#8617;]Of course, you might also argue that sex before marriage isn&#8217;t immoral, in which case, I&#8217;d agree with you [&#8617;]Leviticus 25:44 [&#8617;]Exodus 35:2 [&#8617;]Some other great examples at Follow the Bible? [&#8617;]The Inquisition, The Crusades, etc. [&#8617;]Link via Religious Education With Warts [&#8617;] [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Why, then, do people persist in claiming that religion is the only way to live a moral life? <a href="http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/26814.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/26814.html</a> [&#8617;]http://www.slate.com/id/2167293?nav=tap3 [&#8617;]Of course, you might also argue that sex before marriage isn&#8217;t immoral, in which case, I&#8217;d agree with you [&#8617;]Leviticus 25:44 [&#8617;]Exodus 35:2 [&#8617;]Some other great examples at Follow the Bible? [&#8617;]The Inquisition, The Crusades, etc. [&#8617;]Link via Religious Education With Warts [&#8617;] [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Tapp</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/06/18/religious-education-with-warts/comment-page-1/#comment-46913</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Tapp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jun 2007 03:55:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/06/18/religious-education-with-warts/#comment-46913</guid>
		<description>When it began, UK religious instruction in state schools (as distinct from private  ones) included an option for  and Lancaster U, under Ninian Smart, was training teachers to do that. Established denominations as well as Church of England could also be chosen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When it began, UK religious instruction in state schools (as distinct from private  ones) included an option for  and Lancaster U, under Ninian Smart, was training teachers to do that. Established denominations as well as Church of England could also be chosen.</p>
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		<title>By: Mriana</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/06/18/religious-education-with-warts/comment-page-1/#comment-45076</link>
		<dc:creator>Mriana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jun 2007 00:48:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/06/18/religious-education-with-warts/#comment-45076</guid>
		<description>Brendon, I have read it more than once and have studied throughly to know what is what.  Maybe not as much as Mike, but I&#039;ve studied with some pretty good theologians.  Even historians debate the Bible&#039;s historical accurracy and even then they agree about what is not accurrate in the Bible.

BTW, there has never been a world-wide flood, so in that respect and many others, the Bible is inaccurate historically.  You don&#039;t even have to go to science to find this, theologians will tell you that too, unless you have one who insists that the Bible is inerrant- Sorry, it&#039;s not inerrant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brendon, I have read it more than once and have studied throughly to know what is what.  Maybe not as much as Mike, but I&#8217;ve studied with some pretty good theologians.  Even historians debate the Bible&#8217;s historical accurracy and even then they agree about what is not accurrate in the Bible.</p>
<p>BTW, there has never been a world-wide flood, so in that respect and many others, the Bible is inaccurate historically.  You don&#8217;t even have to go to science to find this, theologians will tell you that too, unless you have one who insists that the Bible is inerrant- Sorry, it&#8217;s not inerrant.</p>
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		<title>By: Darryl</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/06/18/religious-education-with-warts/comment-page-1/#comment-45005</link>
		<dc:creator>Darryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jun 2007 21:02:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/06/18/religious-education-with-warts/#comment-45005</guid>
		<description>Brendon, get a grip here.  I dare say all of the people that regularly post comments on this blog have read the Bible; some of us likely know it better than you do.  I&#039;m no historian, but from what I hear the Bible is not the text that historians of antiquity turn to first when they&#039;re doing research.  Archeology gives us a much better record.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brendon, get a grip here.  I dare say all of the people that regularly post comments on this blog have read the Bible; some of us likely know it better than you do.  I&#8217;m no historian, but from what I hear the Bible is not the text that historians of antiquity turn to first when they&#8217;re doing research.  Archeology gives us a much better record.</p>
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		<title>By: Brendon Lake</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/06/18/religious-education-with-warts/comment-page-1/#comment-44991</link>
		<dc:creator>Brendon Lake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jun 2007 20:14:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/06/18/religious-education-with-warts/#comment-44991</guid>
		<description>Fact: as historical information, the Bible is extremely accurate, any historian can tell you that.
If that is the case, why are we in such a hurry to bin it and God?

They say truth is stranger than fiction, this Truth is rather too uncomfortable for most. The truth is that as mankind we must recognise we&#039;ve blown it and we have no other hope than a God whom we cannot see, whom has given us all the information we need about him in the form of the Bible.

Don&#039;t knock it &#039;till you&#039;ve read it</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fact: as historical information, the Bible is extremely accurate, any historian can tell you that.<br />
If that is the case, why are we in such a hurry to bin it and God?</p>
<p>They say truth is stranger than fiction, this Truth is rather too uncomfortable for most. The truth is that as mankind we must recognise we&#8217;ve blown it and we have no other hope than a God whom we cannot see, whom has given us all the information we need about him in the form of the Bible.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t knock it &#8217;till you&#8217;ve read it</p>
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		<title>By: nullifidian</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/06/18/religious-education-with-warts/comment-page-1/#comment-44844</link>
		<dc:creator>nullifidian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jun 2007 15:37:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/06/18/religious-education-with-warts/#comment-44844</guid>
		<description>TBH, as most people in the UK don&#039;t take much, if any, notice of religion, it&#039;s mostly just out of ignorance that people say that they are &quot;CofE&quot; (anglican) when filling out forms and whatnot.  Most people really don&#039;t give a crap (read &quot;believe&quot;) what the RE teachers say.

I suspect that it&#039;s mostly only those that have grown up in strictly religious households that continue in any kind of faith tradition with any fervour.

The UK is technically a (albeit mild) theocracy although in practice we&#039;re a secular democracy.  Personally, I&#039;d rather we were both technically &lt;em&gt;and&lt;/em&gt; practically a secular democracy, with appropriate religious freedoms, but I&#039;ll have no truck with religious persecution nor privilege.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TBH, as most people in the UK don&#8217;t take much, if any, notice of religion, it&#8217;s mostly just out of ignorance that people say that they are &#8220;CofE&#8221; (anglican) when filling out forms and whatnot.  Most people really don&#8217;t give a crap (read &#8220;believe&#8221;) what the RE teachers say.</p>
<p>I suspect that it&#8217;s mostly only those that have grown up in strictly religious households that continue in any kind of faith tradition with any fervour.</p>
<p>The UK is technically a (albeit mild) theocracy although in practice we&#8217;re a secular democracy.  Personally, I&#8217;d rather we were both technically <em>and</em> practically a secular democracy, with appropriate religious freedoms, but I&#8217;ll have no truck with religious persecution nor privilege.</p>
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		<title>By: Mriana</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/06/18/religious-education-with-warts/comment-page-1/#comment-44807</link>
		<dc:creator>Mriana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jun 2007 15:16:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/06/18/religious-education-with-warts/#comment-44807</guid>
		<description>Oh brother!  That could make things worse not better.  If teachers sit on the fence, which maybe due to fear of those who claim that religion, it won&#039;t help much.  Either it is fact or it&#039;s myth, but it can&#039;t be both. Of course, modern day religion is IMO &quot;evolved&quot; myth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh brother!  That could make things worse not better.  If teachers sit on the fence, which maybe due to fear of those who claim that religion, it won&#8217;t help much.  Either it is fact or it&#8217;s myth, but it can&#8217;t be both. Of course, modern day religion is IMO &#8220;evolved&#8221; myth.</p>
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		<title>By: nullifidian</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/06/18/religious-education-with-warts/comment-page-1/#comment-44773</link>
		<dc:creator>nullifidian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:39:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/06/18/religious-education-with-warts/#comment-44773</guid>
		<description>From what I recall, christianty was basically taught as whatever combination of the MMLJ that suited the particular teacher as &quot;fact&quot; (in as much as &quot;Jesus existed&quot;).  There was a brief tip of the hat to judaism, but no discussion as to the pagan origins, other religions of the time/region.  Neither was there any discussion as to interpretation, philosophy or evidence.  If anything, it always seemed to be presented as &quot;history with a bit of myth&quot;.

There were also discussions of the usual suspects: islam, judaism, buddhism, hinduism, shinto although none of these were treated with any more than a cursory overview.

The origins of religions were completely brushed over, as if they were lost in the mists of time, never to be discovered.

Britain is not by any means a secular country, and won&#039;t be until the monarchy is removed and the church and state are separated.  Hell, even our second parliamentary house, The House of Lords, has a fair number of bishops (appointed by other bishops) setting the rules.

I&#039;m not against the teaching &lt;em&gt;about&lt;/em&gt; religion, I&#039;m just against the teaching &lt;em&gt;of&lt;/em&gt; religion (i.e. as if it&#039;s a fact of reality/history).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From what I recall, christianty was basically taught as whatever combination of the MMLJ that suited the particular teacher as &#8220;fact&#8221; (in as much as &#8220;Jesus existed&#8221;).  There was a brief tip of the hat to judaism, but no discussion as to the pagan origins, other religions of the time/region.  Neither was there any discussion as to interpretation, philosophy or evidence.  If anything, it always seemed to be presented as &#8220;history with a bit of myth&#8221;.</p>
<p>There were also discussions of the usual suspects: islam, judaism, buddhism, hinduism, shinto although none of these were treated with any more than a cursory overview.</p>
<p>The origins of religions were completely brushed over, as if they were lost in the mists of time, never to be discovered.</p>
<p>Britain is not by any means a secular country, and won&#8217;t be until the monarchy is removed and the church and state are separated.  Hell, even our second parliamentary house, The House of Lords, has a fair number of bishops (appointed by other bishops) setting the rules.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not against the teaching <em>about</em> religion, I&#8217;m just against the teaching <em>of</em> religion (i.e. as if it&#8217;s a fact of reality/history).</p>
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		<title>By: Mriana</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/06/18/religious-education-with-warts/comment-page-1/#comment-44768</link>
		<dc:creator>Mriana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:24:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/06/18/religious-education-with-warts/#comment-44768</guid>
		<description>Yes, I know, it is odd.  We are suppose to be a secular nation, yet the Religious Reich keeps trying to take over.  I don&#039;t think they have read our Constitution very well and it seems our pres had disregarded it.

I&#039;m all for education, esp of religion, but will they teach it as a means of OK here are the different religions and their problems, now you choose what you want or will it show the violent history of each one- esp the main three.  Will it show that Christianity started with a mix of Judaism and Paganism or will it ignore that?  Will it tell the kids that Islam came a from a dream/vision, just as Paul had a dream and started Christianity to spread more?   Will it show that the Christian texts was borrowed and/or stolen from other myths and rewritten to make it Christianity?

IMHO the only way to educate one out of religion is show the real origins, not what a small group want people to know.  The warts are fine, but show the myths they developed from too and the battle to force Pagan to turn Mithra (or whatever man/god) to Jesus and alike.  Make them question if any of these people were ever real, so that they go one to find the answer for themselves and not what some church tells them to believe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I know, it is odd.  We are suppose to be a secular nation, yet the Religious Reich keeps trying to take over.  I don&#8217;t think they have read our Constitution very well and it seems our pres had disregarded it.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m all for education, esp of religion, but will they teach it as a means of OK here are the different religions and their problems, now you choose what you want or will it show the violent history of each one- esp the main three.  Will it show that Christianity started with a mix of Judaism and Paganism or will it ignore that?  Will it tell the kids that Islam came a from a dream/vision, just as Paul had a dream and started Christianity to spread more?   Will it show that the Christian texts was borrowed and/or stolen from other myths and rewritten to make it Christianity?</p>
<p>IMHO the only way to educate one out of religion is show the real origins, not what a small group want people to know.  The warts are fine, but show the myths they developed from too and the battle to force Pagan to turn Mithra (or whatever man/god) to Jesus and alike.  Make them question if any of these people were ever real, so that they go one to find the answer for themselves and not what some church tells them to believe.</p>
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		<title>By: Ash</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/06/18/religious-education-with-warts/comment-page-1/#comment-44765</link>
		<dc:creator>Ash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:12:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/06/18/religious-education-with-warts/#comment-44765</guid>
		<description>Mriana - that was my point - i&#039;m english + we aren&#039;t a secular country. i&#039;m thinking if it has to be there, the &#039;warts and all&#039; approach can only be a good thing. i don&#039;t think it should be a compulsary subject in the US, as you&#039;re supposed to be secular (which is weird coz the US seems to have more problems with religion trying to dominate politics), but maybe england can educate itself out of a potential hole.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mriana &#8211; that was my point &#8211; i&#8217;m english + we aren&#8217;t a secular country. i&#8217;m thinking if it has to be there, the &#8216;warts and all&#8217; approach can only be a good thing. i don&#8217;t think it should be a compulsary subject in the US, as you&#8217;re supposed to be secular (which is weird coz the US seems to have more problems with religion trying to dominate politics), but maybe england can educate itself out of a potential hole.</p>
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