If someone tells me they are a Christian, I take their word for it. However, everyone who calls himself one isn’t.

I did not say that Christians have as much trouble refraining from sin as everyone one else. The have the Holy Spirit as their guide. But most don’t follow that guide. The unsaved. have no choice but to sin. It man’s nature and they lack the support of the Spirit. God keeps His promises. The fruit is available but its up to the believer to wheter or not they bear that fruit. Examples. The other day my wife told me of a friend of hers who said “I know I’m suposed to bridle my tongue, but I’m not about to let any walk all over me! She knew the right thing to do but willfully chose to disobey. Years ago in our Sunday School class a woman said ” I know the Bible says that wives should submit to their husbands, but God doesn’t know Dan. God does not force Himself on anybody and does not want robotic followers. We follow and obey because we want to. I was away from church from age eleven to thirty five. I think that would qualify as a modicum of distance. I was also away for another dozen or so years from 1981 to 2005. I did not get away from God in that time nor did I find his promises bankrupt. I got away from church because I did not find the organized church had anything to offer me. I still don’t. However, I feel that I have something to offer the church. Many churches today teach only the fundamentals which is like putting up the framing of a house but never closing in the roof and wall and never furnishing the house. Many are saved but few get beyond that God call but they don’t listen.

Without “qualifying” you wind up judging actual Christians from the beliefs and behavior of nominal Christians. You can’t judge the quality of oranges by examining bananas.

Perhaps you need to qualify; I do not like to do that. I prefer to take people at their word when they describe themselves as one thing, or another, without judging whether they are “nominal,” “committed,” or in between. Maybe I learned that back in my Christian days – isn’t there something about how only god can judge a person and see what’s truly in their hearts?

Why blame God for the faults of man. We are promised devine guidance but we have to follow it for it to do us any good. What good is a road map if you won’t pay attention to its directions?

Well, to this I would say, What good is the holy spirit if it can’t even predispose someone to follow its directions when they’ve taken all the steps necessary to “invite it in” and so forth?

There’s no need for a holy spirit if Christians have just as much trouble following god’s rules and the bible’s teachings, etc. as every other non-holy-spirit-filled person does. And why does the bible make so many promises about believers manifesting the “fruit of the spirit” when it doesn’t actually deliver on them?

I believe the promises of the bible are bankrupt, Ed, but I don’t have any delusions that you’ll agree. One has to get a modicum of distance from these teachings in order to recognize the problems with them. I was an atheist for intellectual reasons for quite some time before I went back and examined these specific teachings objectively and saw the problems with them.

Without “qualifying” you wind up judging actual Christians from the beliefs and behavior of nominal Christians. You can’t judge the quality of oranges by examining bananas.

Why blame God for the faults of man. We are promised devine guidance but we have to follow it for it to do us any good. What good is a road map if you won’t pay attention to its directions? If I get lost on a road trip, should I blame the map that I refused to follow? The fruit of the Spirit comes only when we obey the leading of the Holy Spirit. It is possible (stated in Scripture) that is is possible to grieve or quench the Holy Spirit) by continued disobedience. A born again Christian who greives the Holy Spirit does not loose their salvation. The are still inhabited by Him. The differnce is that the Spirit no longer bothers to get that person to listen. What would be the point. God has saved them. He won’t back out on the deal but there’s no point beating a dead horse.

Do you feel that you once were “inhabited” by the Holy Spirit? Hebrews chapter 5 and 6 tell of genuine Christians “falling away” from the faith because they were fed only milk. (the basics) and not the meat of the word (that which we need for everyday life) causing the sacrifice of Christ to be of no affect in their lives, beyond salvation. You may be one of these.

How is man a victim? God says “This is the way, walk in it” but we go our own way instead? Christian are not “zapped” and made good people, but by following God and studying His word to better know the way. they can be pretty good people. (actually, we are allowing Christ to live his life through us)

Your use of the fossil metaphor is interesting. I understand your comparison to a spiritual experience after a process of searching, and I am glad for you that your searching has proved rewarding.

However my search uses different parameters which I consider to be inborn in me. Curiosity rather than faith drives me. My path involves actual digging in real soil and real stone, tangible as in hold it in my hand, rather than tangible as in a strong feeling of conviction and certainty. I don’t want certainty; I want more questions. Certainty would kill my curiosity, and that would kill me.

Though our paths seem different, perhaps that is just caused by our limited field of view. We each see the world as if through diverging tunnels. To assume that our tiny section of the vista represents the entire panorama would be foolish and arrogant.

My friends, I must bid you goodbye for the time being. The duties of family and career which I have neglected call me away. I am glad that together we were able to call our multi-lateral discussion back from the brink of diatribe and dismissal. I come away from this with more appreciation and understanding of other’s viewpoints, and I hope that you do as well.

Adieu

The myths I referred to were the idea of the young earth/seven day creation for which you have supplied background information, re. Bishop Usher. Thank you for that. My use of the word myth was not a pejorative, only that I consider it to be mythology. Mythology can be very useful as instructive literature when viewed as metaphor rather than literal description, which as you say most Christians consider a foolish way to see it.

The second page gets into how I was born again and what churches I attended.

Karen, you state that you were a Christian for 30 years, during that time was Christianity to you only a state of mind or emotions? Did you ever see any tangible proof of the Lord and his love either in congregations or when you were by yourself? For example, were the sick being healed? Were bondages and addictions broken? Were the poor and needy looked after? Did the gifts (not the fruit) of the Holy Spirit ever manifest?

Richard, it’s great that your parents allowed you to find things out for yourself, mine did the same. Did you ever pursue Jesus or study the Bible? From what you have said you have a passion for archaeological and geological digs or expeditions, I would think that you were searching for things that couldn’t be seen by the natural eye until it was dug up, then it would manifest itself to your physical senses, you had faith in the unseen. Lets say you found a fossil, now that fossil had always been there even though you couldn’t see it or smell it or touch it etc. you only discovered it after you searched and dug it up. Born-again Christians generally have the same kind of experiences. Jesus and his grace is always here, seek Him with an honest heart and you will find Him, then you’ll find that as you grow in the Lord He will become more and more tangible to you. “The Holy Spirit quickens our mortal bodies”. ‘Dig’ in the spiritual realm! The physical realm is temporal the spiritual realm is eternal.

Jesus is tangible and very real to me, more real than the monitor in front of me, He is the Love of my life, the very reason for my existance. Atheistic theology could only be saying one of either the following two things: (1) I am a liar, or (2) Jesus is real but don’t submit to or acknowledge Him.

Hi ho hi ho it’s off to ‘dig’ we go…..

Stay beautiful people!

Live right, shine bright, Jesus is Lord!

No offence mean, but, you do not really have a grap on just what Christianity is. There are a great many Catholics, Roman and others who are true christians. There are some priests and pastors who aren’t (it’s just their means of employment)

Ed, you misunderstand what I’m saying.

I don’t believe in “qualifying” between Christians, nor in judging who is or isn’t a “true” Christian. I accept what people say about their own beliefs, as I believe everyone deserves that much respect (at a minimum) and I have no right to decide how sincere their beliefs are.

What I was trying to express is that many Christians DO qualify and judge and backpeddle about who is a “true” Christian – or a “committed Christian” to use your own phrasing – and I object to that practice. That’s why I lamented about there being “so many qualifiers.”

Do you understand?

I don’t understand your statement “blame the victom”. God has no failures! If you think He does, please give an example and I’ll try to explain.

My reaction that you are blaming the victim came in response to this post of yours:

Unfortunately most Christians don’t listen. Also unfortunately Christians have given God and Christianity a bad name. Christians for the most part just want to keep their tail feathers from getting burnt and only call on God when they’re hanging on the edge of a cliff by their fingernails or the like. As a result they go through all the crap that everyone else has to go through as the result of sin.

Do you see what you are doing? You are blaming people (”bad Christians”) for failures when it is god that is at fault – or, more likely in my view, there is no god and thus no one to blame when people go bad but human nature, ignorance, unfortunate circumstances, selfishness, etc.

Here’s my point: Many places in scripture, Christians are promised divine guidance that will make a real difference in their lives. Heck, they get a HOLY SPIRIT living inside their bodies to guide and direct them. That supernatural power is advertised as producing all kinds of miraculous benefits (”fruits”) like love, joy, peace, patience, unity, and on and on.

But the fact is, there is no measureable difference in the “fruits” of Christians, other religioius people, and nonreligious people. All of us do good sometimes and bad sometimes. I hope that those of us who are committed to living intentionally and compassionately (humanists, whether they are religious or nonreligious) do more good than bad during our brief lives.

But there’s no evidence that a holy spirit is hanging around with certain people and influencing them to be better than others. That’s just not happening in a measureable way, which is the only way that counts.

Therefore, Christians have to explain that problem away. Rather than blaming god, or concluding there is no god and thus the holy spirit promise is fiction, they blame the victims, i.e. themselves and their fellow believers. This sends their self-esteem and other believers’ self-esteem into the crapper.

Which, as I said, is a hell of a way to live. I know, because I did it for 30 years.

You present a big list. I’ll try to deal with them point by point.

If one chooses to believe the earth is only 6000 years old, that’s their affair. It has nothing to do with Christianity. That figure was arrived at by Bishop Usher, I believe he was an Anglican Bishop, in the early 19th century; but I’m not sure. He supposedly counted back the years in the lives of the patriarcs which he added to what he believed was a literal six day creation. This is not a canon of the faith. In fact it is ignored by most Christians as foolishness.

A Christian is free to believe in evolution or creation by God as he sees fit. That does not affect whether or not one is a Christian. However most Christians belive that the universe and the life in it are no accident but exist by design of God. Even those of us who believe in evolution believe that God created that process as well. We who believe in a more direct creation accept that mutations have occured. But whatever, these are phiosophies and not bearing on ones being a Christian or not.

Persecuting homosexuals is not part of Christianity! Most Christians believe, and I also, that homosexuality is an aberration and a sin. Scripture (both Old Testament and New) clearly marks homosexuality as sin. That doesn’t mean we are free to persecute homosexuals! Divorce is also a sin (in most cases) We do not persecute those that have divorced. For that matter, selfishness is a sin we do not persecute the selfish. That would include the lot of us. God deals with the sinner. In civilization we try to control disruptive, or behavior deemed to be harmful to the general public by passing laws regarding these types of behavior. Do I personally think that homosexuality should be illegal. No. I believe that no law harming or protecting homosexuals should exist.

Scripture says in with God there is neither male nor female; neither Jew nor Greek. In other words, One is not better than another to God. God is not a respector of persons. Many Christians, myself included think that women should manage the household and in most cases be second in command, as it were, in the family. There cannot be two heads of the family someone has to make a final decision if it comes down to that. However, scripture says that a man should love his wife the way that Christ loved the Church and gave his life for it. A man is to love his wife as he loves his own body. Christ said that we were to do unto others as we would have others do unto us. Does that sound like subjugation? Either way, this area in not a tenant of the faith. If Christianity excluded sinners, there’d be no Christianity. God knew that we were beyond self-help regarding sin. Christ died for the sins of the entire world. All sins but one were forgiven at His death; that of unbelief regarding His sacrifice.

The shunning, killing, etc. of non Christians is not part of Christianity!! in fact it is an abomination. Anyone doing such things in the name of Christ is a liar and a coward. This type of behavior usually recalls the Spanish Inquisition, in which mainly Jews were tortured, imprisoned and killed. Doing this “in the name of Christianity” was done as an effort to make the crime seem more legitimate. You will find nothing in Scripture. that promotes or condones such behavior. Christ says “Love your enemies. Do good to those who spitefully use you and do all manner of things against you for My sake.”

When I became a Christian, I recognized that I was a sinner and unable to help myself to keep from sinning. Oh, I might do alright for a while but sooner rather than later, I was back to my old behavior. I also recognized that I needed a savior and that the Bible say that Christ was sacrificed by God for that purpose. I accepted that sacrifice as my salvation from hell and from myself. With that acceptance I became a Christian (one who follows Christ) Adding anything, no matter what, deminishes the importance of His sacrifice. If I have to be good or behave a certain way or talk a certain way or give money, etc., then my salvation would be partly my doing. This can’t be! The sacrifice alone atones for our sins.(with God)

Christians like the rest of us tend to be reactionary. They think that if anything is a problem, the solution is making a law against it. If a thing should be promoted, pass a law supporting it. While many of the ills in this world would be solved if everyone was or behaved like a Christian, that does not mean that we can legislate that into being. We must live rightly and try to INFLUENCE others to live rightly, not force them into our mold. An accute lack of patience drives us all, Christian and Non alike and our world suffers for it.

Most Christians, even genuine Christians do not STUDY the Bible, for if they did, these bigotries you speak of would not be so prevalent. Sadly most Christians do not have a clue what the Bible really says or means. We certainly should not wonder that non believer have the wrong slant.

I’m not sure what myths you refer to. Creation?

I did not feel mocked or that you were not in earnest.