“O Lord!
If I worship You from fear of Hell,
cast me into Hell
If I worship You from desire for Paradise,
deny me Paradise
but if I worship you for Your own sake then withhold not from me Your Eternal beauty ” ~ Rabi’a al-Adawiyya (She is regarded as a saint of the 8th century that influenced both Muslims and Sufis)

Well said. Funny how that is from Islam and not Christianity.
To bad more people do not approach their beliefs from this point of view because then there might be a lot less hatred and intolerance in the world.

Oh, Mriana, I have experienced the most compassioon and love I will ever be able to experience. I pray that you may also come to know how high and wide and deep His love is for you.

If you have, then why do you act as you do? It’s a big turn off to Christianity and I’ve met far better behaved Christians, who are not rude or pushy about their faith. They show far more love and compassion than I’ve seen from you. I have felt it too. There is a big difference. All I feel from you is hatred, which is not a good thing or very pretty either. Thus why so many people have this left this thread.

“O Lord!
If I worship You from fear of Hell,
cast me into Hell
If I worship You from desire for Paradise,
deny me Paradise
but if I worship you for Your own sake then withhold not from me Your Eternal beauty ” ~ Rabi’a al-Adawiyya (She is regarded as a saint of the 8th century that influenced both Muslims and Sufis)

Now this is true belief and faith in something from the heart without expectation of reward or punishment. There is no expection of self-gratification. Pity that it appears you have not found that. I don’t care what one believes. If it is truly from their heart without any expectation of anything then it is truly their belief.

It’s when one is insecure about their beliefs, they feel threaten by others who do not agree with them and start acting hatefully. They impose their beliefs on others in dispiteful ways too. Thus why I feel sorry for you. Insecurity is a sign that one has not experienced love and compassion nor are they secure in what they believe, even if they profess differently. Their actions speak louder than words.

I know love and compassion. “It” is very numinous and comes from the hearts of other people. This woman obviously had that numinous understanding and shared it with others in a way that showed love and compassion. True enlightenment comes when one is able to show that love and compassion to others in the things they do. I truly believe, Islamic or not, this woman was good company, who exude true love and compassion, without being hateful to others who disagreed with her.

With such comprehension and understanding, regardless of one’s beliefs, they find true peace in their hearts. Thus why I don’t feel threatened by you, but rather pity you. Maybe one day, you will overcome the harm that was done to you, in which you feel you have to pass such cruelity onto others. Only then will you truly know love and compassion.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3GLtIYSPFLg

Jesus said to His disciples, “Whoever wishes to save his life shall lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake shall find it. For what will a man profit if he gains the whole world, and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of Man IS GOING TO COME in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds. Matthew 16:25-27

May 14, 2007 at 5:31 pm

You know, I feel sorry for you, Betty. Somehow I get the feeling you have never experienced true love and compassion.
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“This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ lay down His life for us.”
Oh, Mriana, I have experienced the most compassioon and love I will ever be able to experience. I pray that you may also come to know how high and wide and deep His love is for you.

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Dan Harlow said,

May 14, 2007 at 3:59 pm

I dropped out of this thread because things really started to get out of hand, but I really need to bring something up.

First, a question:
What is a true Christian and is it possible for anyone to be a true Christian?
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“this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou has sent.” John 17:3

“THe Father loves the son, and has given all things into His hand. He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. ” John 3:3

“It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing, the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.” John 6:63

“I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins, for unless you believe that I Am, you shall die in your sins. ” John 8:24

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. ” John 5:24

“For if we have become partakers of Christ, if we HOLD FAST the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.” Hebrews 3:14

“IF you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:32

“If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. All these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know the One who sent Me. ” John 15:21

“When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth. He shall glorify Me. ” John 16:13,14

“He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemny to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead. Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in H im receives forgiveness of sins. ” Acts 10:42

“God is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead. ” Acts 17:32

TEST YOURSELF TO SEE IF YOU ARE IN THE FAITH;

A true Christian is born again of God’s Spirit, hungers and thirsts for righteousness, for God’s Word. A true Christian puts his full trust in the cross alone for salvation, not self-righteousness or good works. A true Christian will die to self and live for God, will be humble in heart, will love the brethren, and will abide in Christ. A true Christian grieves when he sins against God, and repents. Jesus is precious to him. A true Christian now loves the things God loves, and hates the things God hates. His belief will be evident by his actions, he will be growing in holiness, be obedient to the Gospel of Christ. A true Christian will not hide the truth, but hold forth the Word of Life to those who are condemned, so they might look to the Son to have Life. Read 1 John

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————————————
Dan Harlow said:
So, until I start seeing churches pop up that fit my model, I’m not having anything to do with religion or God because when I see all these people who “say” they believe in God, I think they are just in it for themselves because church is easy and it feels good every Sunday.

But, if I stated to see a mass shift in the attitudes of millions and millions of people, if I stated to see millions give up their comfort zone to do good every day, then I would call that a miracle and I might actually believe there is a God.

———————————————————
Dan, you have a point. But if you cannot see Christians ministering to others in your area, I can point you to some who do. As I said earlier, Kirk Cameron holds a camp for terminally ill children. Perhaps you could contact him if you would like to know more about it. Ray and Kirk both sponsor Feed the Children. God’s the One who knows the heart of true and false converts. I can send you to some Christian sites who do wonderful work. Jesus said not to do your deeds in front of people, for your own glory. But I can give you more information if you would like. But very importantly–good works cannot save you. True Christians do these things because they love the Lord and do it in His Name. Can an un-saved person do good things for people? Of course! But they can also do bad things, the Bible says no one meets God’s standard of goodness. No one, but Christ alone, who stood in our place for us to redeem us.
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Of course, I’m sure some of you will say the Devil is the reason why I’ll never see my idea happen, but I say to you – if you are so weak and so totally brainwashed to have to call your own laziness “The Devil”, then I want no part of your faith, because it’s selfish, self serving and proves there is not only no Devil but also no God – it only proves there are people who talk a good game but are unwilling to back it up.

If some of you truly walk in the shadow of the Lord, then prove it with actions. Quit waiting for God to make a miracle, and make your own because then you might actually start to see people come back to the church and back to faith.
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And that is a good admonishment!

As a Humanist, I am open-minded enough to get my information from various sources and make my own mind up about things. I get the scientific information on a variety of things too.

IN closing, I’ll leave you with another thought that a my dear friend Bishop Jack Spong, who is very much the Christian Humanist (Religious Humanist), sent me long ago and I kept the letter too to share with others:

“Humanism is not anti-Christian or anti-God. It is through the human that we experience the Holy, the Other. The Divine is the Ultimate depth of the human.” ~ Jack Spong.

Something to think about before you judge others without any love and compassion. I try not to judge others as I said before, not even by what my concept is of what one should be. Jack and I may not always agree on somethings, but I can completely agree with him on that statement and I am so sorry you have yet to experience it.

May 14, 2007 at 3:20 pm

So which god is it that people worship when they do evil?

You know with all the Evangelical ministers like Hager with male prostitiutes and drugs, Billy Graham and a prostitute, Bakker and money scandels, Catholic priests molesting young boys and girls, the list goes on and on, you tell me. The majority of people in prisons are said to be Christians.

Where do you get your information (people in prison)?

Less than 1% are atheists. I have yet to see a Humanist be sentence to prison.

Where do you get your information?

The worst Madeline O’Hara did was hire ex-cons for her company and they killed her. The Crusades were done by Christains, killing hundreds of people, Witch Hunts were done by Christians, charges of heresy and subsequent murder of said heretics were done by Christians. The 100 year war was a Christians deal too. Slavery was condon by Christians, as well as segregation, and currently the Bible is being used to deny human dignity to homosexuals. The Qu’ran is used to oppress woman and in some case the Bible too, esp in matters of women’s reproductive health.

You’re talking about abortion? Go to http://www.abortionno.com and let me know what you think of all the nice pictures of babies cut apart in the name of “women’s rights”. Planned Parenthood is literally “making a killing”.
_________________________________________________________________________The Jesus Camp emotionally abuses children. Religious Islamic extremists are accused of doing the Twin Towers thing, but I’d say the Christians have the evil thing wrapped up if you believe in evil, instead of good and bad, moral and immorality. Regardless, I call that all immoral. Yet it is the humans who are doing it all, not some supernatural being.

You got the last right-it is the humans doing it all, and it all comes from the heart. No one is righteous. No one is morally perfect, but God alone.

Those who call themselves Christians and have behaved immorally could be false converts. Jesus said many will say to Him, “Lord, Lord”…and He will say, “Depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.” The door is narrow, and few enter it. THe Door is Christ. Jesus warned us that many in the last days will grow cold in their love for Him, betray Him. Those who persevere in Christ and His teaching-true followers-will be saved. And persecuted.

Many have also been taught a false gospel, which Jesus warned us about. They have been told to come to Jesus for peace and happiness, that their lives will go much better, that they will even be rich!! I agree that many of the televangelists (some with MEGA-churches!!) are preaching a false Gospel. This also was prophecied-that many in the last days will flock to preachers, having itching ears, to hear what they WANT to hear. Jesus said blessed are you if you are persecuted for RIGHTEOUSNESS sake. If you take a stand in His Name, and are persecuted, rejoice and be glad, for of such were the prophets persecuted as well. Great is your reward in Heaven.

What is a true Christian and is it possible for anyone to be a true Christian?

You know, Dan, I don’t know anymore. I have a friend, who knows I’m a Humanist, who believes in my heart I am a Christian. While I can very much agree with various theologians, like those I’ve mentioned before, I don’t love the Bible like they do, but their humanistic values I can totally agree with. I won’t say I don’t view god as they do, for I don’t know, except Spong’s view, how they truly view it.

I don’t think it is possible to say what a true Christian is nor will I sit here and judge Betty by my ideas of what I think a Christian should be. It is possible she has missed the love and compassion that those like Schori, Spong, and my Church of Christ friend have experienced. I would not know and I will not judge her by an concepts I have.

Thank you. That will also allow me to edit a few spelling errors