Posted by Hemant Mehta in Here’s a sneak peek at tomorrow’s debate between Christians Ray Comfort/Kirk Cameron and atheists Brian/Kelly, courtesy of the Rational Response Squad. And as they say, these are the “highlights as seen through the eyes of the RRS.” So I assume less flattering parts of the debate were left out.
There’s some bad language in the video if that matters (though it’s not during the debate itself):
The written commentary is also entertaining.
[tags]atheist, atheism, Christian, debate, Ray Comfort, Kirk Cameron, Brian Sapient, Rational Response Squad, Nightline, ABC[/tags]
Slanted…definatly…why show your ignorance with the filthy mouth dude? Why not edit out his ignorant immature foulness it would have been so much more Powerful. still wrong though
I won’t watch this preview. I’ll wait to see the whole thing on Nightline rather than risk being biased by either side’s spin.
I thought the definition of terrorist was particularly good and very damning. I’m even more interested to watch the entire program on Nightline now.
I would be even more interested if this debate was being done by a professional scientific panel and a professional theist panel but this debate does a good job of explaining how the average lay person approaches this issue from both sides of the coin.
The “universe existed forever” really shut them down though. Great to see them completely shut down for a moment.
I think the RRS should have noticed that and fabricated more challenges along those lines.
But it didn’t exist forever did it? What happened to the Big Bang?
All the matter and energy was there at the Big Bang, just in an extremely compressed and dense form.
I have to say, the intro kind of turned me off, and I didn’t feel like watching the rest of the video.
In response to Helen, the Big Bang theory seems to predict a singularity at the beginning of time, but this does not take into account quantum gravity, so this prediction is in all likelihood false. The singularity is just an indication that the theory needs modification before making predictions back that far.
I think that the idea of “creating” the universe is a little off, since I think of the universe as being the space-time structure, and “creation” implies a before and after–some sort of timeline external to the universe.
Miller:
You are correct. Time and Space are the same thing, so therefore at the moment “before” the big band, all space and all time would have been condensed into that singularity. Time would not have the same meaning as it does to us who now observe it just as space would be much different if we could observe the universe as a singularity.
Your statement of creation being a little off makes perfect sense. In the beginning time did not exist because space did not exist, so therefore there was no beginning - you have to have time (and space) to have a beginning. There was no time before the beginning (except maybe for the small speck that was the singularity).
At least that’s how I understand it. Anyone here know Stephen Hawking so that he can clear this up?
Which incidentally fits very well with what Christian theologians and philosophers have been saying for centuries about God being “outside” of time. If, as theists believe, God was the originator of the Big Bang, then he too exists apart from space and time.
Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron had some very weak rebuttles. Brian and Kelly had the strongest argument IMHO. At one point I swear I heard Kirk and Ray stuttering for something to say.
Mike C:
Evening, sir!
Then what created God? If a sort of time/space exists for God outside of our own time/space, then He would have to look around and ask “Who created Me?”
To steal an argument from Kirk Cameron and Mr. Comfort - all design has to have a creator, so therefore the reality God lives in has to have been designed too. By whom then? God didn’t just get created from nothing, He had to have come from somewhere.
And by that logic one would have to ask who created that designer? And the next. And the next.
But the singularity that existed at the “beginning” of the universe had infinite time. Time moved in all directions and all speeds all at once. Yesterday was tomorrow and next week was 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years ago. Basically, there was nothing else since everything was present in that singularity. The Big Bang was then a product of infinite time but finite space and thus since the two were in total opposition, they had to produce an equilibrium and thus the big bang was a product of finding a balance.
Possibly, if the universe keeps expanding, then the universe will have the opposite problem by having infinite space but finite time and the universe will again have to find balance.
Of course, I’m no quantum physicist so I’m not the best person to fully grasp these concepts. I am trying, though
But what you are talking about is God living outside of all that - which is pretty hard to prove, by the way. Also, if God is infinite AND the universe has the capacity for time or space infinity, then how can you have 2 infinities? That doesn’t make sense since you only need 1 infinity. There can never be 2 infinities (just like there can only be one 1 and one 5). Why bother with a second infinity since one does not need the other? Or better still, the universal infinity does not need the God infinity.
Oh brother, my head hurts. Please, are they any physicists here? Quantum physics makes my head hurt real real bad and I’m probably butchering every thesis ever written on the subject.
Believe it or not, this Big Bang stuff actually has very little to do with quantum physics and everything to do with relativity (well, General Relativity). To clear up a couple of misconceptions, the expansion of the universe (which leads us to the idea of the Big Bang) is an expansion of space only, not of space and time. Space and time are not the same thing, they are just different aspects of a common structure.
As for infinities, we physicists really tend not to like them. Most of the places they show up we tend to interpret their presence as implying that we’re missing something. The infinite density of the Big Bang is one such.
That said, it is unequivocally true that the standard Big Bang theory requires nothing like an infinite time. The age of the universe is measured to be finite (~13.7 billion years as measured by an observer at rest with respect to the source of the cosmic microwave background).
All this said, science is not really in a position to say much about “before the big bang” except that it is pretty much a meaningless idea. Time and space are parts of a construct internal to the universe, so one can’t talk about “before” time and space existed. It’s not really meaningful. There is speculation that there might be some larger construct “outside” the space and time we experience, but I know of no ways for such an idea to be tested.
One other unrelated point. The first law of thermodynamics doesn’t quite work in the manner described, at least not when General Relativity becomes important. First, matter is not conserved. For example, and electron and a positron can annihilate to form light. This is a consequence, actually, of the famous E=mc^2, which we can read to mean that mass is a type of energy. The first law, in its strictest form, just says that the rate at which the energy at a point changes over time is equal to the rate at which energy enters from elsewhere minus the rate at which energy leaves. In other words, at no place can energy be created or destroyed. This is not really the same as saying that the total energy in the universe stays constant, for the reason that, in GR, energy cannot be defined globally. That is, if we try to define energy in a certain way at all points we will usually find places where this gives two different values for the energy. As long as we’re only talking about the energy at one place, this is not a problem.
Brother Dan, I’m with you: it makes my brain hurt trying to think about these things. As for infinities, it is mathematically possible to have multiple infinities that are each self-contradictory of our concept of the infinite. For example, imagine the set of all irrational numbers. How big is this set–it is infinite. Now, imagine the set of all whole numbers. How big is this set–it is also infinite. Here we have two different infinite sets (there are others), one is smaller than the other, and both are smaller than the set of all numbers (another infinity). Does this have any bearing on the universe and the place of the imaginary God? I don’t know.
[...] Goosing the Antithesis tells of the email that Ray Comfort sent to his mailing list regarding the Nightline debate. If you’ve seen the (admitted one-sided) preview video from the Rational Response Squad, you saw that Comfort and Kirk Cameron did not come off looking too well. Maybe that was just the RRS’ video, though? [...]
Well stated. Thank you. Really, I should never speak about physics because I really don’t know what the heck I’m talking about there.
Of course Mike C was talking about God possibly existing outside the construct of our internal universe. You stated :
And I stated:
Which means that you, as a physicist and me, as a blithering blogger
both agree that we can’t test Mike C’s idea of God being separate from or outside the limits of the universe.
So, we’re really right back to where we started - except for the addition of both Darryl and I having headaches.
Wow, I’m sure glad you guys made all that so clear. (slapping forehead) It’s all so simple! I can’t believe I missed it all this time. Thanks!
The only part I don’t understand, and the part I find a little disappointing is that after all that infinite density, infinite energy, infinite space and more or less 13.7 billion years (a week from next Tuesday) of expansion all we have to show for it is those two infinitely dense boneheads at the top of this page with their infinite energy to spout their infinitely vacuous arguments and the rest of us only slightly less than infinite boneheads commenting about them, God and the universe.
Kind of anticlimactic.
Creation is evidence of God. If there’s a creation, there has to be a Creator. Simple. God exists outside of time and space. Creation has order and design..things happen after their own kind. Even the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics tells us that everything is breaking down and losing order. Evolution says things are evolving up! There is no scientific proof of evolution-no transitional fossil forms (vertical) There are other evidences of God as well: science in the Bible has always been accurate-scientists have gotten things wrong in the past. Other eyewitnesses are in the courtroom of our mind-our moral mind-our God-given conscience. The Bible says that these things we know are wrong-murder, stealing, lying, for example-are witnesses against us of a Holy God Whom we sin against. If God the Moral Creator is just, He must judge us all according to the same standard-and He says He will do that. The Bible says God is so just that all liars will have their part in the lake of fire (Hell). No man is pefectly good-but God alone. God-on His own accord-became man-100 % God still-and gave His lifeblood as atonement for sin. When you look at the cross of Christ, the Bible says it was God’s judgment on humanity-all are guilty. It was to demonstrate demonstratng His righteousness. Look at Romans 2 and 3. Look at all of John 3. Jesus said man is condemned already because man loves evil. He said out of the heart comes evil. Isn’t this true? Aren’t we the only creation that causes evil? Our hearts need cleansing. Jesus said we must be born again-born of God’s Spirit-and He will give us a new heart that hungers for righteousness, and tells us only through Him can we have this new birth. All others will perish (Read John 3 again). Over 500 people saw the risen Christ. Over 300 prophecies predicted the coming of the Messiah. The Bible is unique and stands on its own. If you want to know God-read His Word-in which He has revealed Himself to us. Oh, and Romans 1 will tell you that creation is evidence enough to condemn us to Hell because we worship the created (ourselves or false gods) instead of the One who gave us life.
Looks interesting, can’t wait to see the whole debate. Kudos to the RSS.
Personally, I would have edited out the immature dork swearing in the back seat at the beginning. I guess it’s just a pet peeve of mine, but I don’t think it helps in creating respect for us non-believers.
I think I’ll leave most of the debunking of Betty’s post to others; but, first I think I need to address the statements about the second law of thermodynamics.
There are two big problems here. The first is an oversimplification and the second is a misinterpretation. The second law of thermodynamics talks about entropy; and what it says is that the rate at which the entropy at some place changes is no smaller than the difference between the rate at which entropy enters from outside and the rate at which entropy leaves. This is often taken colloquially to say that entropy can be created but not destroyed. That said, however, it is still possible for entropy to decrease locally just by moving it some place else. This, in fact, happens all the time. For example, when you put water in the freezer to make ice cubes, the entropy of the water will decrease; but, you’ll end up with more entropy in the air around your refrigerator. The biological processes involved in life do a great deal of this shifting around of entropy.
The second issue is a little hairier, since it really is a matter of what entropy means in the first place. In talking about entropy, there seems to be a tendency to refer to it as some kind of measure of disorder. This is strictly not correct. Entropy is really a measure of the number of microscopic states that look the same when measuring only macroscopic variables. So, for example, let’s say I have a room full of gas and I somehow measure the total number of gas molecules in the east half of the room and the total number of gas molecules in the west half. The entropy, then, is related to the number of ways I could move molecules around and still get the same numbers on each side. It is, hopefully, clear that there are way fewer ways of doing this if all the molecules are on one side of the room than if they are evenly distributed. This doesn’t mean it’s impossible for all the air in a room to suddenly move to one half of the room. It just means it’s extremely unlikely. And, that is what entropy tell us about - probabilities,
God speaks:
Genesis: 1: “In the beginning, God created …Then God said, …
When Moses asked God , “Who should I tell has sent me?” God said, “Tell them I AM has sent me to you.” Exodus 3: 14
God spoke to many people in the Old Testament. God wrote on a wall with His finger that a king had been weighed and found wanting, for profaning what is holy. God spoke to perhaps a million Israelites in the fascinating account at Mt. Sinai, in the giving of the Law. The people were afraid they would die. God wrote the 10 Commandments-twice-with His Own finger. God spoke as Jesus Christ, and you can read His words in the New Testament.
There are 24,000 manuscripts of the New Testament alone! More than ANY other historical book.( Homer’s Ilyad comes n a distant 2nd w/ about 600. )
IF creation has a Creator, and IF that Creator is a Moral-Law giver, and IF He has repeatedly shown Himself to us through creation, science, prophecy, His Word,eye-witnesses and our conscience, God commends everyone everywhere to repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the earth in righteousness through His Son. (Acts 17:31) There are terrifying accounts of Judgment throughout the Bible, and the last day of Judgment in Revelation. Matthew 24 and Luke 21 speak of the return of Christ and judgment. IF there is a judgment to come, … one would be a fool not to be reconciled to Him in this life. The love of God is always seen in the cross of Christ.
15.
The First Law of Thermodynamics established (Genesis 2:1-2). The First Law states that the total quantity of energy and matter in the universe is a constant. One form of energy or matter may be converted into another, but the total quantity always remains the same. Therefore the creation is finished, exactly as God said way back in Genesis.
Visit:
Modern Scientific Discoveries Verify the Scriptures (Institute For Creation Research)
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16.
The first three verses of Genesis accurately express all known aspects of the creation (Genesis 1:1-3). Science expresses the universe in terms of: time, space, matter, and energy. In Genesis chapter one we read: “In the beginning (time) God created the heavens (space) and the earth (matter)…Then God said, “Let there be light (energy).” No other creation account agrees with the observable evidence.
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17.
The universe had a beginning (Genesis 1:1; Hebrews 1:10-12). Starting with the studies of Albert Einstein in the early 1900s and continuing today, science has confirmed the biblical view that the universe had a beginning. When the Bible was written most people believed the universe was eternal. Science has proven them wrong, but the Bible correct.
Visit:
Modern Scientific Discoveries Verify the Scriptures (Institute For Creation Research)
http://www.understandthetimes.org/101scientific.shtml
Betty wrote:
Well by that logic, if there’s a God, there has to be a “Godder”.
What is it?
Answer: The Universe.
God exists because the universe created it (using human minds to think up such a concept and name it God).
“Before” the universe as we know it existed, there was no God.
The Universe predates God by billions and billions of years.
First Order Logic states: if A=B, and B=C, then A=C. This means that if the premises are true and equal, then the conclusion must be true.
1) There is a mathematical and physical relationship between all (a) matter and (b) frequency,
2) There is a mathematical and physical relationship between all (b) frequency and (c) sound.
3) Therefore, there is a mathematical and physical relationship between all (a) matter and (c) sound.
By first order logic (the premises 1 and 2 are confirmed by all physics and chemistry to be true and equal) it can be shown that
matter not only has a mathematical relationship to sound but a physical one as well. This proves that God did speak all things
into existence; and the body of every living creature from bacteria to human, as all perform this process millions of times per
day through their senses, is living proof.
Samuel says that his document is the mathematical and empirical proof that the bible can and is compatible to and verifiable by science on levels that are only just now beginning to be recognized. The proof also answers dozens of other scientific, theological, and philosophical questions. Hunt says, “I’m not here to argue for evidence of this or that. It’s important, but that’s like putting God on trial and allowing people to believe whatever they want. My document proves the Genesis record as the only infallible scientific explanation for our origins.” According to Hunt, his 84-page document holds the missing factor in the quest to find the Grand Unified Theory of Science.
http://scienceprovescreation.com/
Betty…
You are not making sense.
But you ignore peoples responses and gallop forth to other assertions so quickly that I expect you to ignore anything I write in response.
Unless you interact, I’m forced to conclude that you are not interested in anything we have to say.
Have fun spamming Hemant’s site.
Dear Betty,
You’re not very happy are you? Look at what your beliefs have done to you: you’re a raging, raving, argumentative spouter of ideas that have all come from others. You are not thinking for yourself. If I were a praying man, I’d pray for you.
I was going to clarify for Betty that evolution does not “say things are evolving up,” that it’s just about adaptation and change, but not necessarily improvement. It’s only people’s vanity that makes them think they’re the latest in a “vertical” process. The jury’s still out on whether or not big brains is a good idea in evolutionary terms, since all that extra gray matter seems to be used mostly for screwing up the environment and threatening our own extinction.
But then I realized that Betty isn’t actually interacting with us. She is not responding to other’s comments, she’s just spouting a disjointed mix of scripture and scientific jargon.
My troll-o-meter just went off the scale.
Having learned the hard way about how to handle those, I’ll say no more.
[...] My aim is to simply stir your conscience so it will do it’s “god given”1 duty. If you harden your heart you won’t hear its voice. So here we go, now let’s look at some of the commandments… Ray Comfort [...]
Walls of text and bible-quoting are two things that turn me off, so excuse me if I ignore all that.
Back to the big bang stuff… to play God’s advocate (and this is what Mike C was saying), you could say that God is external to time, and in this context, saying God has always existed makes sense. If this were your line of thought, though, any mention of God “creating” or “acting” or anything like that is an incorrect anthropomorphism.
Not attempting to spam, but using reason . I could only be on a little at a time.
Siamang wrote:
Well by that logic, if there’s a God, there has to be a “Godder”.
What is it?
Answer: The Universe.
God exists because the universe created it (using human minds to think up such a concept and name it God).
“Before” the universe as we know it existed, there was no God.
God always has been, always will be. We will never figure that one out, but if your hope is in His Son to save you, you will abide with Him forever, He will give you eternal life. Our feeble minds only know a small percent of anything. But God has made the door of salvation very low. He has confounded the wise.
Also stated: The Universe predates God by billions and billions of years.
Where do you get your information?
Where is proof of evolution? Where are the millions of transitional fossil forms? All the ape-people have been debuned, and National Geographic has had to recant. The Bible says God created things after their own kinds: trees beget trees, people beget people, who are made in God’s image.
Where does morality come from? the moral -Giver. Yet man chooses to rebel against God .
People say “whatever you want to believe is okay. Every path to God is okay.” The God of the Bible-the one true God (Jesus) -says the road is narrow and few will find it. Broad is the path to destruction.
We are all on death row. 10 out of 10 die. The Bible says the wages of sin is death. All of creation groans because of it.
Have you opened up the Word of God and read it?
I assume you mean the bible? I did read it, in fact that helped complete my journey to become an atheist. thanks for asking!
Isn’t it hard to think that there is NOT a God? I can’t imagine being an accident.
I might as well have my fun then. I might as well rob my neighbor (they’ll never find out) and move to another state and live in luxury for the rest of my life. Why work? Why care?
Here for nothing? It’s obvious that we are here for a purpose. God made us with a purpose. Our job on earth is to FIND that purpose. If you want to serve God, then you will please God and enter eternity with Him. If you want to serve yourself, your sins and your god, you will enter eternity that route.
It’s actually really simple.
Not an accident. Just nature. I’m the result of natural processes, no magic required. Nobody formed me from dust or a rib. Just biology and mommy and daddy doing what comes naturally.
Wait, so you admit that you’d rob your neighbor if it wasn’t for threat of Almighty punishment?
That’s not morality, it’s just fear. You sound like a sociopath.
I don’t rob my neighbor because I CARE about my neighbor. I have sympathy and love for my neighbor. If secretly I could rob him and nobody would know, I WOULD STILL KNOW, and so I don’t. Why? Because I’m a moral person.
Because I like to, and because I need money to eat.
Because I’m a good person, not because someone’s going to stick me in the ForeverFurnace if I disobey.
Obvious to you, maybe, because you’ve wrapped your whole life around a narrow set of beliefs. What a waste.
Sez you.
According to those who claim to have found that purpose, the purpose seems to be telling other people what to do and how to live.
Ancient bullshit made up by the rich and powerful Romans to frighten and control the masses.
Ooooh scary. I’m so frightened of your imaginary hell.
Bullshit usually is.
Thanks Betty & Cary- I just said the sinner’s prayer, and now I’m saved. Hallelujah!
…
Betty,
You didn’t answer me.
If everything had a creator, what made God?
Siamang, thanks for that response to Cary. I’m so sick of those shallow characterizations of atheism and it’s supposed implications. Your line-by-line rebuttal was the best I’ve seen yet.
It seems that for some (not all) Christians the first pre-requisite to being a Christian is to have a really low opinion of people. They seem to base their opinions of mankind on themselves. It’s tempting to think maybe it’s a good thing they believe the Great Smiter will kick their ass if they don’t behave, but I like to think that if they didn’t have Big Daddy over their heads, most of them could grow up, get beyond their childish level of morality and instead would do the right thing for the right thing’s sake.
Then again, maybe I’m naively basing my opinion of mankind on myself.
Personally, I believe it takes infinitely more courage to do the right thing WITHOUT the threat of a God or a spirit terrorizing a person with eternal damnation. Choosing to commit yourself to a selfless cause, doing good when NOBODY is looking and willing to put your life at risk WITHOUT the benefit of eternal salvation is much more noble and much more difficult to do without a God.
Believers have it easy because they live in fear. Atheists have it harder because we make the conscience decision to do good without expecting something in return.
(Yes, I know how that last paragraph sounds, and I don’t care)
Also, why should someone have to have the threat of fear put into them to do the right thing? If God is supposed to have created us with this morality at birth, as many Christians believe, why do they need encouragement to be good?
Besides, the very fact that there are atheists who do good every day PROVES morality from a God is a farce because how could the atheists ever have done good at all without God? Heck, the very existence of atheists pretty much proves there is no God at all.
After watching the clips and without not much brain power to understand science and your big eternity comments, I like to think about what God calls himself. “Love”. If we take love out of the equation, then we can throw God out. I am talking about the Christian God by the way, no others religions God calls himself that. Love is more than an attraction, it is inexplainable. My feelings of love towards my wife go beyond sex and reproduction, in fact I often wonder why I have this love for her, she doesn’t look super pretty in the morning, annoys me… a lot. But I still love her. Maybe someone can explain to me where love comes from and why we have this… For me it is simple, God is love and we are made in his image, therefore we love, Christian or not. Science cannot prove love to me. No equations, brain power, theories can explain it. A 1 year old baby understands love, where does that come from, it is more than instinct. I love sunsets, I love the beach, I love…… Do we learn to love?
It seems to me that this debate is not discussing Gods existence but more (not everyone though I have to admit) on the hating of a God that has been distorted by his creation (especially so called Christians), which is sad, I found God by seeking him, not my parents, not my church, they failed me, I found him by seeking him, him alone, because if God is love, then thats huge.I have looked at some of the arguments about history and even the Bible and some of the crazy things that God did in there and I have answers. Some are too long to discuss right here, some are simple, but it started, the way Kirk started, by asking God are you real and guess what he proved himself. I challenge all of you to ask God, “Are you real, prove yourself?” Some may get hit by lightning (joke!!), others God may take his time to answer that question.
If you want to comment on my post please do, but prove to me that you are loving with your remarks….
God calls into being that which did not exist. Romans 4:17 Everything that exists came into being by Christ. In Him is life. This life is the light of men. He became flesh and dwelt among us. John 1.
Q!uote: Because I’m a good person, not because someone’s going to stick me in the ForeverFurnace if I disobey.
What qualifies someone as good? Where do you draw the line? There has to be an absolute standard of goodness. That absolute standard is God alone.
IF you’ve broken God’s Law, you are not a good person. God, as the just judge of the universe, cannot be corrupt! He must judge us all according to the same standard. We have all broken that Moral Law. Only One has kept it: Jesus Christ-fully God, fully man. He is the only One who was perfect, and he took on the wrath of God to pay the penalty for us, to redeem us from the curse of the Law-becoming a curse for us. God displayed Christ publicly as a propitiatory sacrifice to demonstrate His righteousness, so He might be just and justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
I’ve asked it too many times to count. I ask it in different ways every day. I’ve done this for decades with zero answer. Is that proof God doesn’t exist? I cannot say. But if He does exist, He has a different path in mind for me than the one you’ve chosen for yourself and the one you think I should choose.
I’m happy for you, Ben, and all the wonderful things you have and enjoy in life. I’m happy you have a spiritual feeling that connects you to life and other people.
I also feel love, and I enjoy life passionately.
But just because you feel love and you associate that feeling with supernatural causes does not mean that the same is true for me, or SHOULD be. I would be a fool if I were to prescribe a set of beliefs for you, and say, “you MUST believe as I do”. I would be an idiot if I “challenged” you to give up your church, give up prayer, give up believing in God for a month or so because then the Truth would reveal itself to you and you’d be an atheist.
I think it’s a little like love. What if I told you you married the wrong woman, and really you should marry a girl named Shirley?
Beliefs don’t work like that, and my path is not your path. I do not for one moment think that doing any prescribed set of actions in a “challenge” can change someone’s beliefs, any more than you could make someone love someone else.
Discussing ideas can be enlightening and fun, and can promote mutual understanding. But come on “just ask God to reveal Himself”? Did you think we hadn’t thought of that?
Just because I don’t have the same beliefs you do doesn’t mean that I didn’t try to.
Betty,
You didn’t answer me.
If everything had a creator, what made God?
I was trying to prove a point. Not saying I want to rob my neighbor, I’m just saying why wouldn’t we do immorial things if nothing matters? I know no matter what I say here you all will just insult me. That is okay. My intentions were not to insult any one else. If you watched the debate it’s obvious that the Christians were very loving in their approach. I’m sorry we can’t discuss things without being called an idiot and other names.
Nobody said “nothing matters”. It is you who are saying that to an atheist nothing should matter.
Get this right: Atheists care passionately. We have tremendous capacity for love, compassion, sympathy, humanity and caring.
I’m growing sick of Christians coming here to insult us and say things don’t matter to us and we should rob our neighbors, based on their own misunderstanding of our beliefs. Sorry if my tone was brusque, but the hundredth or so time that someone asks you if you have any basis for your morality, it gets tiresome.
I found your question insulting. What if I went on a Christian website and asked “Hey, if you’re forgiven for sins, why don’t you go rape a kid and ask forgiveness from Jesus”? It’s an insulting question. It begins with an assumption of the amorality of the questionee. It begins by putting the questionee lower than the questioner, and on the defensive. It’s not a question seeking an answer, it’s a question seeking to make the questioner feel superior.
I accept that you didn’t intend any insult and I apologize if I reciprocated too harshly.
I haven’t seen it yet, but if Cameron and Comfort approached the subject with love then it would be quite a change from their past behavior regarding atheists. They were very rude to Hemant on their show and called him names and continued to attack him after he was off the air and couldn’t defend himself.
Hemant is the Gandhi of atheists (a comment not based on his being Brown ;-)). He is a meek and gentle soul, polite to a fault. To have them be so awful and rude to him is testament to their smug superiority and breathtaking hubris.
I’ll be very pleased to see this new side of Comfort and Cameron. Perhaps Hemant’s gentility has rubbed off on them.
Ben:
What is love?
There is a species of stork (maybe it’s a crane) that lives in Asia. When the birds mate, they mate for life. Is that love?
In Yellowstone Park when Bison are being hunted by wolves, the bison will go out of their way to protect stray members of the heard. Is that love?
Elephants often pause at the “grave” sites of their dead herd members. Is that love?
When you see a great ape cradling its young and protecting it from all danger, is that love?
If love is from God, then why do we see the same behavior from animals in the wild? If God is love, then it seems he has given this capacity to all creatures even though it is professed that love is unique only to humanity. Now some animals may have less of this desire than others - spiders and alligators are not exactly loving towards anything, but whales, humans and apes care very much about each other.
Love, basically, is an product of evolution. We humans are very social creature and that ability to be social has been one of the main reasons why we have been so successful. The more we have evolved, the more powerful this emotion is felt for us. Love for each other keeps communities together because there is strength in numbers and love is the “glue” which holds our different societies together (unless the societies have different religions, then they hate each other).
The thing about love, though, is that it is a very powerful emotion (hate is a close second on the top ten chart) and we do not have the ability to really control love (and that’s a good thing, I believe). But since our brains are designed to be curious we have a hard time processing this emotion. Love can take a hold of a person (love at first sight - I’ve felt that) and can even change a person (like when we act silly around the girl we love).
Because of this power love has over pretty much every aspect of our lives, we deal with it better by giving it a supernatural explanation. It’s hard for us to deal with a force/emotion that can control us, we don’t really want to accept that it’s just a product of our evolution. Since love is felt towards other humans (though one could say they love their pet) we imagine it being the product of a God or spirit in our image. In other words, love is kind of a scary thing because of how strong an effect it has on us.
So, if love is a product of evolution, does it make it any less important and powerful? No, of course not. Even if scientists were able to pin down the love gene in our DNA, we would still be as powerless as a person in the 13th century who believed it came from God to control it. We would still have the desire to protect our young from danger, we would still stay faithful to our spouse (though that doesn’t happen much anymore, unfortunately), we would still grieve over the loss of dead relatives and we would still lay down our lives for a cause we believed in.
Possibly, when our species evolves again (evolution doesn’t quite work so quickly, I’m over simplifying) we will be better equipped to deal with love. Maybe the next species of intelligent humans will evolve away from the humans who kill in the name of love and will be better adapted to cope with such a powerful emotion. By then, we may no longer need to invent spirits living outside our realm of reason and experience to explain the things in our lives we are unable to control.
NOTE: I wrote this comment about an hour ago, but for some reason it got lost when I submitted it (and it was better than this comment too). If that post should ever appear from computer limbo, please forgive my writing basically the same thing twice.
Dan Harlow said,
May 9, 2007 at 6:08 pm
Personally, I believe it takes infinitely more courage to do the right thing WITHOUT the threat of a God or a spirit terrorizing a person with eternal damnation. Choosing to commit yourself to a selfless cause, doing good when NOBODY is looking and willing to put your life at risk WITHOUT the benefit of eternal salvation is much more noble and much more difficult to do without a God.
Believers have it easy because they live in fear. Atheists have it harder because we make the conscience decision to do good without expecting something in return.
(Yes, I know how that last paragraph sounds, and I don’t care)
Also, why should someone have to have the threat of fear put into them to do the right thing? If God is supposed to have created us with this morality at birth, as many Christians believe, why do they need encouragement to be good?
Besides, the very fact that there are atheists who do good every day PROVES morality from a God is a farce because how could the atheists ever have done good at all without God? Heck, the very existence of atheists pretty much proves there is no God at all.
———
Anyone can do good things if they choose. But we don’t always choose to do so. How many of us have never lied? Lusted? Stolen? Coveted? Hated? Even if we’ve done good things, we’ve also done bad things. How many times a week have you lied? Or even considered it? To the murderer, the rapist thinks he’s good. To the rapist, the liar thinks he’s good. Again, comparing ourselves to others is not is what is required of us…but comparing us to an infinitely good God shows us we are not good–we love ourselves more than others-and we do not love God with all our heart. We justify ourselves, but God knows our hearts. God’s standard of goodness is God Himself-and that is who Jesus is. Jesus never sinned, Jesus loves God above all else, and Jesus loves humanity and died to redeem us. Can you see the love of God in the cross? What other person would do this for all of humanity? Would you? Would you do it for the murderer in jail? For the man who cheats on his wife? This is the other point brought up on the debate and we hear it a lot-God just forgives. THe love and forgiveness of God are tied up in blood-the life is in the blood. Sin so grieves God’s heart lifeblood is required to atone for it. Does that sound unreasonable and uncomprehensible? So does the cross-it is a stumbling block and an offense to the sinner-because in order to come to God, one must humble their heart. God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. God has given us creation, science, prophecy, His Word, and His dear Son, and eyewitnesses–all to bring us to the cross of Christ. I have to ask, have you humbled your heart before Him?
Siamang said,
May 9, 2007 at 7:29 pm
Betty,
You didn’t answer me.
If everything had a creator, what made God?
God is I AM. If He is creator of creation, existing outside time and space, no one had to create Him. God is not matter, He doesn’t have flesh and bones. God is Spirit. God communicated His eternal-ness by His spoken Word and by speaking creation into existence.
“He Himself gives to all life and breath, determines their appointed times and boundaries, that they should seek Him and findHim, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and exist. : Acts 17:26-28
Take a breath. Where did it come from? Who causes your heart to beat til the day you die? Who set the earth in motion? Who tells the waves to come this far-and no farther? Who not only created–but sustains–all life on this earth? Who holds the earth in orbit? Who gives it rain and seasons?
The fool has said in his heart–there is no God. God have mercy.
Betty:
For many years I worked in a home that cared for developmentally disabled adults. These were men who were either wheelchair bound and had seizures, severely handicapped with CP or ravaged with bi-polar disorder.
Also, as a child, my grandmother did the same work. I grew up around disabled adults and I learned first hand how society treats these people.
Now, when I was working in the home, one of the guys was DEEPLY religious - a baptist from Kansas. For awhile, a nice Christian couple would take him to church every Sunday and bring him home. Problem was, when this man became manic, he would literally scream and shout in the name of God to anyone he thought was a sinner. He would curse people to hell for having long hair or smoking. In short, he was difficult to take into public.
After awhile, the church the nice Christian couple were taking my man to decided he was too much of a nuisance and asked me to please find another church for him.
I repeat - this “Child of Christ” was too much of a nuisance for the Christian Church to deal with. Sure, they prayed for him, but guess what - since God did not heal his illnesses, they threw him to the curb.
Real classy.
Since I needed to find another church for my friend (and keep in mind, Betty, I’m an atheist) I put up notices at churches asking people if they would be interested in helping with a difficult situation.
Know how many people responded?
ZERO!!!!!!
That’s right, ZERO Christians felt like they had enough LOVE in their heart to care for this man. ZERO Christians had the amount of love for my friend as I, AN ATHEIST had for him. In fact, I took him to church for awhile when I was able to do so (as did some of the other people who worked with him).
Now don’t tell me about absolute good. I’ve seen the absolute good your religion claims to be the keeper of and I’m not impressed at all.
So when you say things like :
I have to laugh at that.
Now, how can atheist have more love in his heart for someone who wants to worship God than the people who go to the church where God is worshiped?
In closing, I’ve seen enough Christian love to last me a lifetime and if it means having to burn in hell to get away from all the do-nothing, talk big Christians in heaven, I say GOOD because if I can go all of eternity without ever having to deal with these so-called Christians, it will be too soon.
Betty:
By the way, the majority of people I worked with when caring for the mentally disabled were not Christians. Many were spiritual and though I would not call them atheists, they also were not Christians.
I have allot of experience in this field of work, but I’ve never been able to figure out why so few Christians are drawn to the real work of helping humanity in this capacity.
Can you maybe answer that one for me? I so hope it’s not because the disabled are some sort of painful reminder that God is not perfect.
++++
As you can see, I am VERY emotional about this topic so I should add that I mean no disrespect towards Christians in general, even though I have said some nasty things here. It’s just that I worked with living, caring, loving human beings that most of society would rather forget or lock up or worse. These people need an advocate because many of them are unable to fully care for themselves.
If Christ is really “alive”, I demand that he put more God loving Christians on the path of helping these people.
Betty wrote
What the heck is that supposed to mean? That’s not even a sentence. Is that some kind of magic spell you chant? “God is I AM”? Ridiculous, That IS!
Wait… how come you get to say that your God didn’t need someone to make him, but I can’t say that the Universe didn’t need something to create it?
You’re changing the rules to allow your “first cause” but disallow mine. Isn’t that cheating?
More magic spells. Why do you hide behind this chanted gobldeygook? Speak plain english.
ummm….. air?
What ARE you talking about? Nobody is making my heart beat. I don’t have someone giving me CPR.
This question doesn’t make sense. Nobody set the earth in motion. Why would you think a person moved the earth? Aren’t we beyond gods like Atlas moving the earth?
Um…. Poseidon? Okay, really, you’ve lost me with this witch-doctor stuff. Am I supposed to conclude that there’s an invisible magical being who put up breakwaters and levys?
Nobody! That’s kind of the current big problem with the world, life is going extinct at a phenomenal rate because NOBODY’s minding the store.
Nobody. I have a telescope. I can tell you without a doubt that nobody is holding the earth.
Well, the magical pixies of course.
This whole line of questioning doesn’t seem to have come from the 21st century. Invoking God for the very rain? What about Zeus for the thunder? Here in the 21st Century we understand things like rain and the seasons. We are no longer baffled by water falling from the sky and need to invoke rain spirits to explain it.
Don’t you have a statue to pose for somewhere?
Yeah, so full of love. Great Christian you are.
Excellent point, Siamang!
Dan,
That is a terribly sad story. I don’t have anything to offer in the way of help, but perhaps a ministry could visit your facility.
That’s great that you do that work. My wife worked with DD clients for awhile. She’s an atheist too. She loved the work and the clients, but disliked the facility. I think she saw that undervaluing first-hand.
Siamang:
The events I talked about happened a few years ago and the gentleman in question has since passed away.
I too have had a similar experience as your wife concerning the organization I worked for. We once had a “consumer” (that’s the term we used to describe the people receiving services) that was very overweight and had some social issues. He was a great kid and everyone liked him. He was lucky in that he lived in his own apartment and he had a job. Our job was to help him make better decisions about his hygiene, his weight and his social skills.
Well, we started to make real progress after about a year but the place we worked for decided to restructure and provide less services for our friend. Myself and a lady who had been with the organization for many years were told that we were no longer needed and were reassigned.
Reassigned!
This guy was our friend. You don’t reassign friends!
Needless to say, we were pissed and raised such a BIG STINK that when the dust settled and we had made no progress, we quit.
It was the last straw for me, and I’ve heard many stories like this before too.
Too often, the developmentally disabled are treated as products and not people. It’s forgotten that they are human beings with hopes and dreams just like you and me and even Betty.
What’s worse is “well intentioned” people think it’s enough to “pray” for the disabled. Now that really pisses me off.
Pray? Are you serious? How insulting!
It’s insulting because A) the act of praying for the disabled assumes there is something wrong with them that needs fixing and B) it’s an excuse to not have to leave your house to do anything to actually help the disabled with the stuff they do need help with.
Anyway, I’m sure your wife and other people she has worked with has similar stories. They are all sad stories too, unfortunately.
I have to admit, me quitting was a tough decision because I knew I was doing some good but on the other hand I had taken such poor care of myself that I was mentally unable to do it anymore. I still feel bad about leaving. I still think about both the people I’ve been talking about here. Sometime I think I made a mistake, but other times I remember how hard it was too.
I guess that’s why I get so mad at Christians who do nothing but preach and talk but never get their hands dirty. Somehow they think just spreading the word of God is enough and everything else in the world will take care of itself. But these Christians have no idea what the real world is all about (and I’m not talking about all Christians, so please look past my anger). They talk about love but have never really loved. They talk about God but they really worship a comfortable and convenient idol. They say they know God while millions of people around the world don’t even know what it’s like to eat food on a regular basis, or have the use of their limbs. What good is their God doing them?
Does the Christian God have such low self esteem that he needs everyone preaching about him at the expense of millions dying?
If I ever were to believe in a God, it sure as heck fire would not be that God.
Talk, talk, talk. It seems a few Christians have decided to try to talk us to death. Perhaps they feel it is their mission in life. Well, excuse me if I don’t engage your witless blathering by answering at length.
You seem to love to regurgitate slogans and specious arguments that you’ve memorized, so here are some you might like: “Talk is cheap,” “Put your money where your mouth is,” and the less decorous “Put up or shut up.” I put to you the challenge that I have put to others who are, like you, blindly arrogant: show me your power. Show me your God. Work a miracle. Heal a cripple; give sight to the blind; turn water into wine; or strike me dead with a word. Search that holy book you say you believe and show me where it explains why no miracles occur today; why we never see God’s indisputable action in the physical universe. How is it that over the centuries everything that you Christians have warned was of the Devil turned out to have a natural explanation? You denied truths based upon your Bible only ultimately to have to admit you where wrong. Have you learned nothing? One by one your mysteries are evaporating as science and inquiry advance. Soon you’ll have none left. What then?
You can put all this debating to bed with one simple, modest little miracle; one display of your God’s omnipotence. Schedule a date and time. You should have no problem getting full media coverage of such a news-making event.
I’m waiting.
Betty:
Are you serious? Did you actually just cut and paste this as your answer?
Unbelievable!
Do you even know what any of the science is actually talking about anyway?
See, this is why atheists have such a hard time with religion - especially Christianity - because of the canned responses. I mean, you didn’t even bother to interpret what you cut and pasted, you just posted it as if it were the same “truth” you find in the bible.
Now I’m sure you study the bible and understand it to be the word of God, but do you also believe everything at http://www.understandthetimes.org/101scientific.shtml is also from God? Do you presume to believe that anything that has a fish symbol on it to be the undisputed word of God just like the Bible?
Next time, if you really want to reach out to people, take the time to understand the material you are talking about. If, as often happens with many people, you get in over your head, admit you are in over your head.
I’m sure if you’ve spent anytime on atheist sites like this one, you’ve seen that the people who actually know what they are talking about are the ones who get heard and are engaged in a friendly and thoughtful manner. It’s when people just spout off tidbits of things they don’t know anything about that the trouble starts.
Many atheists (not all, but many) have taken the time to learn and understand the facts of science and then, when they talk about what they know, they are providing their take on the information. But you, Betty, you offer nothing personal, you only hand out empty cans of nuts which you believe to be full. We can’t take you seriously because we know you are not thinking for yourself.
Atheists pride themselves on thinking for themselves - even God (in theory) wants people to think for themselves. That’s why He supposedly gave you free will. That’s why he supposedly planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden of eden. Your God set you on a platform of which you have free will to fall off of.
But you turn atheists off with these canned responses because we don’t want to be a part of something that strangles our ability to think for ourselves. We see people like you doing what you are doing and we remember that encounter as “something to avoid at all costs”.
Nobody wants to be turned into a robot. Even your God does not want you to be a robot. He wants you to have a personal stake in His existence. He wants you to bring something of yourself to the table.
I always hear that “God is creating an Army.” Well, Betty, I was in the military and I can tell you that no commander wants robots fighting for him, he NEEDS people who are capable of thinking for themselves because all the training in the world can’t prepare a person for every scenario. He may want you to work within a set of guidelines, but He does not want a robot.
Where in the world did Kirk get those photos of two different animals put together. Evolution is the mixing of alleles on genes to eventually create new species never one single organism. Evolution takes place because the envirnoment on the Earth is forever changing so orgainsim INCLUDING Homo Sapiens much change (evolve) or die. Evolution does exist and can be seen in new plant and animal species since so called creation of the Earth. One modern day evolved deadly virus is the flu virus H5N1 that has killed over 180 people already. Another very good example of evolution that has occurred over millions of years is that of the horse. It’s evolution tree is very complete.
Darryl : When I was 7 I had meningitis, I was supposed to die, my church prayed for me, the next day I was fine, the doctors had no idea how I was fine? Miracle - Yes.
I have seen many many miracles as I have traveled with my work (I am a missionary by the way), a paralyzed lady, prayed for, she was able to jump around. Unfortunately we live in he USA where Christianity has become dead, churches care more about the size of the building than faith and sacrifice. You will not see many miracles here in the USA, go to Africa the Middle East, China and other countries, they are living like the first Christian church, with only God to rely on. You see miracles every day. The Chinese church is growing at a massive rate, millions of Christians, Muslims all over the world are giving their life to Christ, South Korea went from 0 Christians to 50% in less than 100 years, Nepal has thousands coming to know God every day. Do not look to the American church as an example of Christianity, seriously. Unfortunately man is sinful by nature, I work now in the USA and like many missionaries who have traveled the world I am concerned for the US church. God has blessed the USA, despite its history, but like the promise to Abraham, we are blessed so we can be a blessing to those in need. The USA has neglected (somewhat) that command to us. But on that note ….
Dan:
Sorry for your experience with churches, they were wrong, I am truly sorry.
But do not tell me Christians do nothing to help the poor and needy, go to Africa, Afghanistan anywhere where the Tsunami hit and it is Christian organizations that are helping to rebuild. Even look at New Orleans, I have been there 3 times since Katrina and its mostly the church and Christian organizations that are rebuilding that city. Time magazine ran an article on it recently if you don’t believe me. Look back over the past 200 years of groups that have helped the needy and you will see that it is Christian organizations that have helped. Barnados, Salvation army, then the many missionary organizations that are bringing relief work all over the world. The organization I work for has been asked in Thailand, Indonesia to be the main organizers of relief and rebuilding after the Tsunami. Why us, its because they know we care and love people. I know non Christian organizations help as well, but it frustrates me when I hear people say Christians don’t care. Bono!! A self professed Christian is leading the way in kicking the wests butt into shape about Aids in Africa. My organization is doing lots of work to help with that. Also we are funding water purifiers to help Africans have clean water. Love your neighbor, many Christians are obeying this commandment!! I wish more would, especially in the blessed western rich church!
And to everyone who has posted comments on here saying they would never follow Christianity because of the example we as the church have been , that is a horrible reason too. I am a hypocrite, I work with hypocrites, Christians are hypocrites, we all know that. Some of my best friends are hypocrites. Does that mean I refuse to work with them. No. Jesus is the only person to look to as a true example of Christianity, look to him and his teaching, not the US Church who has largely turned their back on Christs teaching of sacrifice and love.
Also Dan:
Love, like many other things does not evolve (thats a whole other subject, creation science vs evolution), it is more than the instinctual actions of animals, but I do confess I don’t understand why animals behave in ways that can be loving. I would die for my wife so she could live, that is true love, a selfless love that would always put her before me (well I am trying to achieve this, but thats what my heart wants). Christ died for us so we wouldn’t have to, that is true love, like I said earlier, not sex, remorse or past memories. Your view of love is distorted by this world. True love is to lay down your life for someone else, nothing is greater than that. God is not a hateful God, he wants no one to go to Hell, thats why he selflessly died so we could have life. Somebody deny that that is not the most loving thing someone could do. Not an inch of hate. God is love not hate. Because of sin we choose to reject God, so it is our decision to go to hell to reject God, even though he made a way out for us. What an amazing God that would use mans decision to kill him as the way for us to be redeemed. Thats the kind of God that I follow not this hateful, vengeful God you speak of.
Evolution does not have a direction because climate does not have a direction (up, down, left, right NO). Climates on Earth change over time so alleles and genes (genetic information within all living organisms) have to change also. This is why species 1, 5, 10 , 25, 50, 100 etc. million years ago look different than their offspring of today. Here is a personal example: I when to a traveling civil war exhibition and I myself was surprised by how much people have grown in just 150 years. To see all the little furniture and know that the people (our ancestors) that lived just 150 years ago were shorter and smaller physically than us.
Dan,
Don’t give me that it-happens-everywhere-but-here bullshit. If you had evidence of a single confirmed miracle, you’d be world-famous overnight and your picture would be on the front page of every newspaper in the world. Wanting miracles to be true is not the same as making true miracles. Come now, you can do better than this.
Ben:
I am, of course, only speaking in generalities. I know for certain that there are many faith based groups who help millions around the world. Mike C, who often comments here is an excellent example of that fact.
But, what is really being said here is that a Christian good is better than a non Christian good. It trivializes the good of people who do not believe in a Christian God.
Let’s say that a Muslim group sent aid to New Orleans? Would their good be less good than a Christian charity?
And really, what does it matter anyway? Who cares if the hungry are fed by an atheist, a Muslim or a Christian? As long as they get fed, everything else is semantics. Their hunger will be just as satisfied no matter who’s hand it is coming from.
Now, you may say in response, “Well Dan, if it does not matter, than join the Christian fold.”
But I would say that if I already don’t need God to lead me down the path of morality, then why take on the extra baggage? I have no desire to act from the vantage point of a possible eternal reward. I will do good because good needs doing, everything else is secondary.
Now, as for your comment about my view of love being distorted by this world. You’re wrong. I have known great love and nobody can tell me my love is not as good as Christian love. That sort of statement drips with the implications that the love I have known is not as good, or strong or capable of driving me to lay down my life for what I love.
I believe fully that you, Ben, have experienced great love and joy in your life just as I have. I believe that we both have been hypocritical. I believe we are more similar than different. I just choose not to believe in any God. Aside from that difference, how much different are we really?
Too be honest, if I were God and I saw a person who did good and loved without thinking that it could bring him eternal life, I would want to spend eternity with them. I would have my doubts about people who may have lived their lives with their eye on the thought of eternal life.
Really, if God does exist, he should have never offered any “evidence” of His existence at all. No Bible, no Jesus, no “miracles”, no “revealings”. He should have just “created” the universe and sat back to see who lived a life of virtue because the people who did good all the while thinking there was no good reason to do so, are the sort of people who can be counted on for all eternity.
For example, if I owned a bank, I would want to hire people who I could trust when the security cameras were not working. I would not want to hire people that encouraged me to have to also buy security equipment.
I’m not sure I have spoken about miracles. Did you mean this comment for Ben?