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	<title>Comments on: Bible + Nazi Germany + Planned Parenthood = Biology</title>
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	<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/03/20/bible-nazi-germany-planned-parenthood-biology/</link>
	<description>Atheism with Positivity</description>
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		<title>By: Patrick Craig</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/03/20/bible-nazi-germany-planned-parenthood-biology/comment-page-1/#comment-16622</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Craig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Mar 2007 18:02:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/03/20/bible-nazi-germany-planned-parenthood-biology/#comment-16622</guid>
		<description>In an earlier comment I got a little silly.  Now I&#039;m going to be quite serious.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Plus, is it truly fair for there to be a requirement to teach one THEORY, but not acceptable to inform about another?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

A good question, to which I might, in the classroom, answer this:  

&quot;Many people who are religious believe that the entire universe was created by god or some &#039;intelligent designer&#039; who developed everything on a time span ranging anywhere from six days to several billion years.  SEE YOUR CHURCH FOR DETAILS.&quot;

For discussion:  would even saying THIS be going too far for a teacher in a science classroom?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In an earlier comment I got a little silly.  Now I&#8217;m going to be quite serious.</p>
<blockquote><p>Plus, is it truly fair for there to be a requirement to teach one THEORY, but not acceptable to inform about another?</p></blockquote>
<p>A good question, to which I might, in the classroom, answer this:  </p>
<p>&#8220;Many people who are religious believe that the entire universe was created by god or some &#8216;intelligent designer&#8217; who developed everything on a time span ranging anywhere from six days to several billion years.  SEE YOUR CHURCH FOR DETAILS.&#8221;</p>
<p>For discussion:  would even saying THIS be going too far for a teacher in a science classroom?</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Wade</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/03/20/bible-nazi-germany-planned-parenthood-biology/comment-page-1/#comment-16619</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Mar 2007 17:49:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/03/20/bible-nazi-germany-planned-parenthood-biology/#comment-16619</guid>
		<description>Tani,
&lt;blockquote&gt;Plus, is it truly fair for there to be a requirement to teach one THEORY, but not acceptable to inform about another?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
It is fair to teach theories of science in a science class, and theories of religion in a religion class.  The difference is that the science is backed up by physical evidence that can be verified by many people.  Arguments over the interpretation of the evidence leads to gathering of more physical evidence, until one theory has so much evidence supporting it that it becomes unreasonable to dismiss it.  In the case of evolution there are literally mountains of evidence.

Religious based explanations about Earth and life offer no physical evidence of their own, use circular logic and absurd interpretations of someone else&#039;s evidence and concentrate mainly on casting doubt on the competing theories rather than properly supporting their own.  If you think it would be fair to teach such theories in a science class, then to be truly fair you would have to include the many hundreds of religious theories from many hundreds of religions, those both still extant and now dead.  This would take about four years of full time study.  You&#039;d come out knowing a whole lot about mythology but you might not remember much about science.

If you think that the school board acted hasitly or unfairly, then do an investigation of their investigation.  Be scientific about it.  From what I have read they had a 90 minute meeting with Mr. Helphinstine followed by a public hearing which he chose not to attend.  There is physical evidence, including the test which you acknowledge you did not take, supplemental study materials with several Biblical references  and the PowerPoint presentation trying to infer a causal link between evolutionary theory and Nazi Germany.  Look at this evidence and look for other evidence, such as the notes taken during the private meeting.  Those may be restricted by rules of confidentiality, but ask about them anyway.  Remember that a person&#039;s mouth going up and down is not evidence.  It has to exist in physical space, like documents, digital materials, fossils, rocks...  

Whether or not you liked Mr. Helphinstine is beside the point and you must set that aside if you want to practice the critical thinking that he claims he was promoting.  He either honored his agreement with the school board to teach the criteria for the science class or he violated it.  The evidence will tell you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tani,</p>
<blockquote><p>Plus, is it truly fair for there to be a requirement to teach one THEORY, but not acceptable to inform about another?</p></blockquote>
<p>It is fair to teach theories of science in a science class, and theories of religion in a religion class.  The difference is that the science is backed up by physical evidence that can be verified by many people.  Arguments over the interpretation of the evidence leads to gathering of more physical evidence, until one theory has so much evidence supporting it that it becomes unreasonable to dismiss it.  In the case of evolution there are literally mountains of evidence.</p>
<p>Religious based explanations about Earth and life offer no physical evidence of their own, use circular logic and absurd interpretations of someone else&#8217;s evidence and concentrate mainly on casting doubt on the competing theories rather than properly supporting their own.  If you think it would be fair to teach such theories in a science class, then to be truly fair you would have to include the many hundreds of religious theories from many hundreds of religions, those both still extant and now dead.  This would take about four years of full time study.  You&#8217;d come out knowing a whole lot about mythology but you might not remember much about science.</p>
<p>If you think that the school board acted hasitly or unfairly, then do an investigation of their investigation.  Be scientific about it.  From what I have read they had a 90 minute meeting with Mr. Helphinstine followed by a public hearing which he chose not to attend.  There is physical evidence, including the test which you acknowledge you did not take, supplemental study materials with several Biblical references  and the PowerPoint presentation trying to infer a causal link between evolutionary theory and Nazi Germany.  Look at this evidence and look for other evidence, such as the notes taken during the private meeting.  Those may be restricted by rules of confidentiality, but ask about them anyway.  Remember that a person&#8217;s mouth going up and down is not evidence.  It has to exist in physical space, like documents, digital materials, fossils, rocks&#8230;  </p>
<p>Whether or not you liked Mr. Helphinstine is beside the point and you must set that aside if you want to practice the critical thinking that he claims he was promoting.  He either honored his agreement with the school board to teach the criteria for the science class or he violated it.  The evidence will tell you.</p>
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		<title>By: Lynn's Daughter</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/03/20/bible-nazi-germany-planned-parenthood-biology/comment-page-1/#comment-16612</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynn's Daughter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Mar 2007 16:23:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/03/20/bible-nazi-germany-planned-parenthood-biology/#comment-16612</guid>
		<description>http://www.bendweekly.com/ppt/Eugenics-WEBPAGE_files/frame.htm

Here&#039;s the powerpoint, if you haven&#039;t seen it already.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.bendweekly.com/ppt/Eugenics-WEBPAGE_files/frame.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.bendweekly.com/ppt/Eugenics-WEBPAGE_files/frame.htm</a></p>
<p>Here&#8217;s the powerpoint, if you haven&#8217;t seen it already.</p>
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		<title>By: Tani</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/03/20/bible-nazi-germany-planned-parenthood-biology/comment-page-1/#comment-16514</link>
		<dc:creator>Tani</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Mar 2007 03:21:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/03/20/bible-nazi-germany-planned-parenthood-biology/#comment-16514</guid>
		<description>A claim and an assumption were made on March 20, 2007 when Mr. Helphinstine of Sisters High School was fired. The school board fired the well-liked biology teacher because of an accusation made about his teaching of evolution. 
Mr. Helphinstine was “deviating from accepted curriculum by presenting materials supporting creationism to his biology class” and that is why he has been fired as of Monday night.  Is this an accurate accounting of his actions?   Aren’t we all supposed to be innocent until proven guilty?
Myself and a few other students were brought to tears when reading the article about his firing. We couldn’t believe that one malicious lie could end a young man’s career. 
&quot;The test was 90-plus percent intelligent design material,&quot; Rahm said.
I don’t know what test Rahm’s daughter took, but the test the rest of us had taken was about vocabulary and their meanings. But that is just what devastates me most. If the school board was to go to the extreme of firing Mr. Helphinstine, shouldn’t they properly investigate, such as looking at the test material given?
Plus, is it truly fair for there to be a requirement to teach one THEORY, but not acceptable to inform about another?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A claim and an assumption were made on March 20, 2007 when Mr. Helphinstine of Sisters High School was fired. The school board fired the well-liked biology teacher because of an accusation made about his teaching of evolution.<br />
Mr. Helphinstine was “deviating from accepted curriculum by presenting materials supporting creationism to his biology class” and that is why he has been fired as of Monday night.  Is this an accurate accounting of his actions?   Aren’t we all supposed to be innocent until proven guilty?<br />
Myself and a few other students were brought to tears when reading the article about his firing. We couldn’t believe that one malicious lie could end a young man’s career.<br />
&#8220;The test was 90-plus percent intelligent design material,&#8221; Rahm said.<br />
I don’t know what test Rahm’s daughter took, but the test the rest of us had taken was about vocabulary and their meanings. But that is just what devastates me most. If the school board was to go to the extreme of firing Mr. Helphinstine, shouldn’t they properly investigate, such as looking at the test material given?<br />
Plus, is it truly fair for there to be a requirement to teach one THEORY, but not acceptable to inform about another?</p>
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		<title>By: MTran</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/03/20/bible-nazi-germany-planned-parenthood-biology/comment-page-1/#comment-16399</link>
		<dc:creator>MTran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:13:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/03/20/bible-nazi-germany-planned-parenthood-biology/#comment-16399</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The information presented is clearly propaganda and in no way relevant to a science class. Helphinstine clearly had an agenda and that agenda was NOT freshman biology.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Ya got that right!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The information presented is clearly propaganda and in no way relevant to a science class. Helphinstine clearly had an agenda and that agenda was NOT freshman biology.</p></blockquote>
<p>Ya got that right!</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Smith</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/03/20/bible-nazi-germany-planned-parenthood-biology/comment-page-1/#comment-16342</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Mar 2007 06:54:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/03/20/bible-nazi-germany-planned-parenthood-biology/#comment-16342</guid>
		<description>If you all simply want to debate ID v. Evolution go ahead.  If however you&#039;d like to discuss why this guy was really fired take a look at the powerpoint on the Bend Weekly site.  http://www.bendweekly.com/ppt/Eugenics-WEBPAGE_files/frame.htm  Whether or not there is science to support Evolution or ID is irrelevant. The information presented is clearly propaganda and in no way relevant to a science class.  Helphinstine clearly had an agenda and that agenda was NOT freshman biology.  

The argument that this material was to encourage critical thinking is pure crap, especially as it relates to science.  What does a picture of dozens of bodies, piled in an open pit &quot;grave&quot;, at a Nazi concentration camp have to do with critical thinking in science.   Taken in isolation or as presented in the deck this just isn&#039;t about science.  There isn&#039;t a single attempt to discuss science or scientific study anywhere in the deck.  

The material would be a stretch as appropriate in a social studies, history, or political science class.  But as it was presented in a freshman biology class it was WAY off base.  That in itself justifies the termination of a part-time probationary teacher.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you all simply want to debate ID v. Evolution go ahead.  If however you&#8217;d like to discuss why this guy was really fired take a look at the powerpoint on the Bend Weekly site.  <a href="http://www.bendweekly.com/ppt/Eugenics-WEBPAGE_files/frame.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.bendweekly.com/ppt/Eugenics-WEBPAGE_files/frame.htm</a>  Whether or not there is science to support Evolution or ID is irrelevant. The information presented is clearly propaganda and in no way relevant to a science class.  Helphinstine clearly had an agenda and that agenda was NOT freshman biology.  </p>
<p>The argument that this material was to encourage critical thinking is pure crap, especially as it relates to science.  What does a picture of dozens of bodies, piled in an open pit &#8220;grave&#8221;, at a Nazi concentration camp have to do with critical thinking in science.   Taken in isolation or as presented in the deck this just isn&#8217;t about science.  There isn&#8217;t a single attempt to discuss science or scientific study anywhere in the deck.  </p>
<p>The material would be a stretch as appropriate in a social studies, history, or political science class.  But as it was presented in a freshman biology class it was WAY off base.  That in itself justifies the termination of a part-time probationary teacher.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Wade</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/03/20/bible-nazi-germany-planned-parenthood-biology/comment-page-1/#comment-11855</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Mar 2007 04:56:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/03/20/bible-nazi-germany-planned-parenthood-biology/#comment-11855</guid>
		<description>Wow. QrazyQat, remind me never to argue with you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow. QrazyQat, remind me never to argue with you.</p>
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		<title>By: QrazyQat</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/03/20/bible-nazi-germany-planned-parenthood-biology/comment-page-1/#comment-11257</link>
		<dc:creator>QrazyQat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Mar 2007 18:11:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/03/20/bible-nazi-germany-planned-parenthood-biology/#comment-11257</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Have you encountered him or the argument you think he’s implying before? &lt;/i&gt;

It&#039;s extremely common.  Note too the tactics:  first he brings up a false claim, and to buttress it he offers a book put out by a radical religious institute which literally has never put out a true bit of info about evolution ever.  He makes -- or at least very strongly implies -- the nonsensical claim that the idea of a superior race (one of the oldest ideas in human history) staretd in the mid-1800s with Charles Darwin&gt;  Then, when this is pointed out, he disses the source of a valid critique with the claim that &quot; they are hardly paragons of objectivity over there&quot; just before decrying their claimed use of ad hominems instead of valid argument (ie. claiming they do what actually he, Rob, is doing).  Then he does a backtrack with a backup, so to speak, as he attempts to place his discredited claim yet again (&quot;Darwin’s theory could have influenced Hitler and his followers...&quot;) again without proof, and also implying that someone&#039;s later use of that person&#039;s ideas is something that should properly be laid at the feet of the person who came up with the idea, not the people using it.  This is made worse because in fact this would be a tenous line by what even Rob admits were people with &quot;twisted minds&quot;, but he leaves alone the obvious question of what twisted those minds, the minds of most of a nation, in a direct fashion for many centuries.  He does this because the answer to that, rather more apropos and certainly much more direct cause, is the church.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Have you encountered him or the argument you think he’s implying before? </i></p>
<p>It&#8217;s extremely common.  Note too the tactics:  first he brings up a false claim, and to buttress it he offers a book put out by a radical religious institute which literally has never put out a true bit of info about evolution ever.  He makes &#8212; or at least very strongly implies &#8212; the nonsensical claim that the idea of a superior race (one of the oldest ideas in human history) staretd in the mid-1800s with Charles Darwin&gt;  Then, when this is pointed out, he disses the source of a valid critique with the claim that &#8221; they are hardly paragons of objectivity over there&#8221; just before decrying their claimed use of ad hominems instead of valid argument (ie. claiming they do what actually he, Rob, is doing).  Then he does a backtrack with a backup, so to speak, as he attempts to place his discredited claim yet again (&#8221;Darwin’s theory could have influenced Hitler and his followers&#8230;&#8221;) again without proof, and also implying that someone&#8217;s later use of that person&#8217;s ideas is something that should properly be laid at the feet of the person who came up with the idea, not the people using it.  This is made worse because in fact this would be a tenous line by what even Rob admits were people with &#8220;twisted minds&#8221;, but he leaves alone the obvious question of what twisted those minds, the minds of most of a nation, in a direct fashion for many centuries.  He does this because the answer to that, rather more apropos and certainly much more direct cause, is the church.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Wade</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/03/20/bible-nazi-germany-planned-parenthood-biology/comment-page-1/#comment-10676</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Mar 2007 00:45:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/03/20/bible-nazi-germany-planned-parenthood-biology/#comment-10676</guid>
		<description>LOL!
I just looked up Godwin&#039;s Law.  That is both hilarious and oh so sadly true.
Thanks Karen and MTran for the wisdom of your experience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LOL!<br />
I just looked up Godwin&#8217;s Law.  That is both hilarious and oh so sadly true.<br />
Thanks Karen and MTran for the wisdom of your experience.</p>
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		<title>By: MTran</title>
		<link>http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/03/20/bible-nazi-germany-planned-parenthood-biology/comment-page-1/#comment-10465</link>
		<dc:creator>MTran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Mar 2007 20:32:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/03/20/bible-nazi-germany-planned-parenthood-biology/#comment-10465</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Maybe I’m being naive. Have you encountered him or the argument you think he’s implying before? &lt;/blockquote&gt;

I don&#039;t know Rob at all.  But this very topic -- relating Hitler, Nazis, and the Holocaust to Darwin -- has a very long history of being deliberate flame bait on usenet, particularly on alt.atheism and talk.origins.  For &quot;long history&quot; I&#039;m just using my own experience since the late 80s.  

Having seen the same comments maybe a few thousand times too often on other forums may make me overly sensitive to these types of &quot;insights.&quot;  

&lt;blockquote&gt;Do you really think he’s saying if it wasn’t for Darwin we wouldn’t have had the Nazis?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I think that is not an unreasonable inference, based on his continued argument/assertion, which fits the criteria for Godwin&#039;s Law fairly well. But again, I may be biased by having too many prior experiences with such on-line arguments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Maybe I’m being naive. Have you encountered him or the argument you think he’s implying before? </p></blockquote>
<p>I don&#8217;t know Rob at all.  But this very topic &#8212; relating Hitler, Nazis, and the Holocaust to Darwin &#8212; has a very long history of being deliberate flame bait on usenet, particularly on alt.atheism and talk.origins.  For &#8220;long history&#8221; I&#8217;m just using my own experience since the late 80s.  </p>
<p>Having seen the same comments maybe a few thousand times too often on other forums may make me overly sensitive to these types of &#8220;insights.&#8221;  </p>
<blockquote><p>Do you really think he’s saying if it wasn’t for Darwin we wouldn’t have had the Nazis?</p></blockquote>
<p>I think that is not an unreasonable inference, based on his continued argument/assertion, which fits the criteria for Godwin&#8217;s Law fairly well. But again, I may be biased by having too many prior experiences with such on-line arguments.</p>
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