The argument that there is no God is completely valid, as is the argument for God.

What I’ve found that people on BOTH sides get worked up over is the question of weather or not any sort of Faith Experience is valid.

The problem that comes up is that EVERYBODY, no matter what they believe, regularly experiences things they cannot explain and\or understand. We have different ways to explain these, from the scientific to faith-based to the downright bizzare.

My argument is one against certainty. Both sides generally work from the assumption that they KNOW the TRUTH. I am a Pagan woman, so I suppose I am guilty of some of this myself- it’s human nature. That said, it’s best to keep an open mind.

There is NO certainty.

From the side of Faith, it can be seen that there are many, many experiences that, despite differnt methods, explainations, or interpretations, can be considered nearly universal. This suggests a common element that runs though the Faith experience, one that has not been fully explained. It is a very limited and incorect view that there is only ONE way to explain these experiences.

On the side on Science, the world of the rational is a varied one indeed. The very pupose of Science is discovery- scientists are out to discover the whys and reasons of our reality. The key here is discover. Nothing, NOTHING in Science is truly absolute. Even proven effects, such as Gravity, may have to be changed or discarded eventually. This would be a Discovery. If reality was absolute, then Science would be impossible. You can only Discover what is unknown to you.

My point is that Certainty in belief is a very limiting thing. To claim hardline Athism means a complete rejection of that which brings their worldview into question, just as having hardline Faith.

The only way to undertand the world we live in is to be open-minded. What you see, and what you don’t, are such a tiny part of what’s REALLY out there.

“There is more to Heaven and Earth then is dreamt of in your philosphy.”

Uh, no. Your religion says things that are demonstratively false. Why would you want your lies to permeate society? Aren’t you happy enough to lie to yourself, rather than involving me in your lies?

Also, I’m pretty sure this is a country in which ALL religions are accepted. So – are you going to express ALL ideals, or just the ones you personally believe in?

Oh wait – I’m pretty sure I know the answer to that…

Being a Christian…a believer…in God…and also believing that the Bible is the inspired, revealed truth of God and about God…there are some simple truths as to why people either don’t believe there is a God or why, if they do believe in some kind of god, they believe ‘wrong things’ about Him.

1. Since the fall of man in the garden of Eden, we are dead…spiritually speaking…and living under a curse or wrath or judgement. Because of our spiritual ‘deadness’…we have lost our ‘ability’ and even the desire to relate to or with God…this also is part of the curse of original sin. Romans 1 tells us that ” since the creation of the world His (God’s) invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they (we) are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools.

2. There is a real, evil being ( Satan, The Devil, etc. and his angels/demons) and he has blinded our minds to the truth. 2nd Corinthians 4:4 says that “the god (little “g” god) of this world has blinded the minds of those who do not believe to keep them from seeing the light of the glorious gospel of the Messiah, who is the image of God ( This would be Jesus ). Reminds me of the original ‘Matrix’ movie. We’re all lashed and locked into our little pods like ‘Mr. Anderson’..living and believing a lie…until he is set free.

3. We don’t WANT there to be a God. If there is a God then we’ll have to be accountable to Him and this really bums us out…it makes us culpable….basically the idea of the existance of God de-thrones us from being the god of our own lives and doing whatever we please. John 3:19 tells us that ( and I paraphrase ) people love darkness rather than light…because our deeds are evil. We like sinning..and we’re darned good at it. Then John (actually John is quoting the Lord Jesus ) really ‘unloads the truck’ on us in chapter 8..”“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. “But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.

I’ll stop there..after saying that the remedy for this condition that we find ourselves in is in the person of Jesus Christ. He came to earth to die, really. He came for the express purpose of being a sacrifice..turn turn God’s wrath away..a payment for the sins of those of us who beleive and who were formerly being held captive by the world ( system ), the flesh ( our sins ) and the devil ( the little ‘g’ guy ). If we accept what He (Christ) has done as payment for our sins and believe on Him, we’ll be saved, redeemed, made right again..in relation to God ( big “G” ).

One last scripture verse:
Romans 10:9..
If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

It’s that simple…and that hard. They’ll be no scale of good-works compared to bad things…simply our acceptance of the work of Jesus and our faith/belief in him. Ok 1 more..I’m sorry:
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God

I pray that God would grant all of you this gift. That you would come to a saving knowledge of the truth, that you would believe it, confess it and be saved.

With respect and kind regards.
Steve.

>>Why do you love and approve of a god who, as punishment, sends his own creations to burn in a eternal hell fire? What does that teach anyone? How can you consider that good or LOVING? (Isn’t inflicting pain on another awful?)

Response: “Eternal hell fire” and other strong descriptive phrases for “hell” found in the bible are just that – descriptive language. The meaning behinds phrases like these deals with people who willfully choose to turn away from God completely. These people, in the end, will be eternally separated from God – and those descriptive words above paint a picture of what it might feel like to be separated from God completely. That said, I don’t think that your worldview or believe (in a positive sense) has much of anything to do with it. . I believe that you can disbelieve in God’s existence and yet not rebel against God. I also believe that you can believe in God, and even follow God, and still be in continuous rebellion against God.

>>Suffering is necessary for..? To bring us closer to a cruel God who tortures people eternally as punishment.

Response: Here’s another perspective: In order for a grape vine to produce good grapes, you have to cut back the vine significantly. So, the suffering that is a part of our lives can serve to cut back ‘stray vine’ we have growing and choking out the possibilities of good fruit. The idea is something along the lines of this: When people suffer, they will often gain a new appreciation for life (i.e. are nicer to people they weren’t nice to before, take more pleasure in simple things). When we suffer for and with God, we can not only gain a new appreciation of life, but a new and lasting way of living life.

>>Also, if God created everything, than he created evil and good, therefore he is responsible for it as well. Is someone in the position of power clearly not responsible for the evil that they could stop?

Response: The premise of the biblical story is that the devil (whoever or whatever the devil is) made a choice to rebel against God. And in the beginning of humanity, humans did not have even an inclination to rebel against God, however it was an external source, the devil, personified as a snake (for whatever reason), that tempted us to rebel. But we are ultimately still responsible to make the choice between following or rebelling against God

>>How can God be justice or righteous when the innocent suffer while the wicked prosper?

Response: The prosperity of the wicked is temporary – and is also full of emptiness. If you travel to third world countries, you will find that some of the most materially poor people are also some of the kindest and most loving you will ever meet, while the rich are often depressed, lonely and hardened. I’m not saying that people should be poor, nor am I saying that rich people are evil … I am saying that people should watch out for the desire to be wealthy for wealth’s sake (i.e. to want more stuff, or more money to serve ourselves). Rather, we should all give radically of ourselves (time and/or money) to help the poor enter into a sustainable future.

Ryan

Again, I will ‘Pray that ‘God Be With You, Christina Godbe, Redding,Ca.

Humans tried to usurp God’s place in betraying the commandment not to eat of the tree.

Sin enters in with a barrier now between God and humans.

Judeo-Christianity is the story of God redeeming humans back into loving relationship with God and each other. Sin unfortunately distorts relationships and sorrow is huge globally.

Heaven and earth are to be remade and repopulated when evil (demonic sources) are extinguished in the lake of fire. I know, I know. It’s sound fundamentalist. Yes, I am an evangelical who believes that the Bible stories are teaching major theological truths.

As one who lived a good pagan life til 26 and now as a Christian for 20 years, I’ve seen much I don’t like on any side. While God’s existence is not denied by atheists, his existence is denied (practically speaking) by professing Christians in their walk. Christians are to seek out whom they may help and tell people of the Christ as they live their faith.

Atheists seem to come in all stripes like many professing Christians. In the end God does not reveal much if anything to anyone with weak to no faith. And make no bones about it- it’s all about faith. No not fideism. But faith which is a balance of a reasoned understanding of who God is and how the narrative makes sense with a spiritual infusement (from the Holy Spirit) that confirms these truths.

I pray that all would be at peace with God one day. If not I’d still like to eat pizza, listen to some rock or ride bikes or whatever with any of you. My desire is to enjoy people and the earth that God made to the best that we can.

John

The list btw is semi-valid. Some points are straw-men. Others not well thought out at all. Interesting nonetheless.

Why do you love and approve of a god who, as punishment, sends his own creations to burn in a eternal hell fire? What does that teach anyone? How can you consider that good or LOVING? (Isn’t inflicting pain on another awful?)

Suffering is necessary for..? To bring us closer to a cruel God who tortures people eternally as punishment.

Also, if God created everything, than he created evil and good, therefore he is responsible for it as well. Is someone in the position of power clearly not responsible for the evil that they could stop?
How can God be justice or righteous when the innocent suffer while the wicked prosper?

Clearly I am an atheist. (Who believes that a purposeful life can be one that is inspired by love and guided by knowledge.)

I do not foolishly deny the existence of a God or higher power, I just do not believe in God or the God defined by Christians. Just curious to anyone who responds and can answer these questions. I have yet to come across a satisfying answer, but I still leave the door open, unless anyone would like to amuse me with the ridiculous answers that I am use to…. than that’s ok too.
with love from an Atheist aka “satanist” (as I find funny) aka freethinker also

Lindee