Posted by Hemant Mehta in Radio host Terrence McNally recently interviewed Richard Dawkins. The transcript can be found here. Most of it is a rehashing of words Dawkins has said many times before, but this particular response bugged me:
TM: In other words, if [a religion was] just a philosophical belief that had no impact on the world, fine.
RD: Exactly. I don’t think you’ll find many people criticizing any gentle religion, like Jainism.
Sam Harris echoed that thought in The End of Faith
Do these men actually know the details of Jainism? I do. I was raised with the faith.
I assume they’re referring to the fact that Jainism hinges on the belief and practice of non-violence. And it is true that, as a result, you probably won’t see Jains blowing up buildings anytime soon.
However, for all the diatribes Harris/Dawkins leash upon religious beliefs that have no basis in reality, they seem to ignore the beliefs of Jainism entirely.
I criticize certain aspects of Jainism in the book, but let me mention a few of the illogical beliefs now:
- Jains believe in a never-ending, cyclical time cycle, with phases of “rising” and “falling” happiness. Each phase lasts several thousands of years.
- Jains believe that they can accumulate and shed karma and this impacts our future lives (reincarnation).
- Jains do not believe in Evolution (PDF).
For all the insults Harris/Dawkins bestow on religions that have similar beliefs, they are too kind to Jainism.
Again, these beliefs are not going to hurt anyone and I’ve never heard of Jains pushing their beliefs onto anyone else. But I can’t imagine why Harris/Dawkins fail to criticize these beliefs.
Unless they’re simply unaware of them.
[tags]Terrence McNally, Richard Dawkins, atheist, atheism, Indian-American, Desi, Jainism, Sam Harris, The End of Faith, karma, reincarnation, Evolution[/tags]
I’m surprised they mentioned Jainism at all. With all due respect I’d never heard of it. Maybe Harris and Dawkins are similar in that no one hears about Jains killing people so it doesn’t fit well into their theme. Wacky fundamentalists that leads to irrational behavior seems to be their type of citizen to be concerned about. However, the fact Jains don’t believe in evolution bothers me and I’ll look into that one.
I would guess that Dawkins and Harris are going for the ‘bigger fish to fry’ argument on that one. I think they are both pretty focussed on Islam and Christianity at the moment as these are the ones that are most clearly doing real damage to us, socially, politically etc.
The fact that Jains don’t believe in evolution isn’t really going to cause a whole lot of trouble outside the Jain community. Dawkins and Harris are looking more at the impact of religion on the people outside that community.
I’m ashamed to say that I don’t know as much about Jainism as I should. I’m wondering – what do Jains believe about the caste system? It seems to me that belief in Karma and reincarnation often serves to hold up an injust and oppressive caste system where people are told that they deserve to be treated as less valuable than other humans because of something they may have done in a past life.
Do Jains buy into this system as well or do they hold onto the idea of Karma without subscribing to the idea of caste?
Just wondering…
Mike– Technically, Jains do believe in the caste system, but at least in my upbringing (as well as most of my Jain friends’), it was never an issue and never brought up. I’m not sure how prevalent it is in Jain communities in India. I’ve also *never* heard any Indian use the caste system as justification for anyone’s lot in life, whether they were Jain or Hindu or what-have-you. Thankfully, it appears we’ve gone beyond that.
– Hemant
As a teen, I was drawn to both Jainism and Buddhism due to their reputation for non-violence. But I wasn’t able to accept the underlying assumptions about “how the world worked” or the supernatural ideas any more than I could accept the odd superstitions of Christianity.
I’m guessing that Dawkins et al. are taking the approach that if a religion doesn’t cause widespread or immediate public harm then they’re not going to argue with it.
I agree with Mike C about the Karma belief making it easy to oppress people. But I would add that just about any religion tends to do that. So would some secular philosophies, if they were practiced by lareg numbers of people.
I second the motion. We have to test all claims equally, and even Dawkins and Harris seem to be falling into the trap of arguing from consequence: “They’re not violent, so they’re not that bad.” I would respond like you: “But their beliefs are still bullshit.”
I’m sure Dawkins and Harris would agree to this if pressed. I think they’re just trying to make a point about the lesser of evils.
I’m assuming you mean the Indians you know here in the States. As I’m sure you’re aware, back in India oppression of the Dalits (justified by the concepts of karma and caste) is still a big problem.
Mike– I was referring to the states. I’ve never heard the caste system mentioned here. But even in India, many parts of the country that I know of are slowly going beyond the system, too. There are still problems with people believing that idea, but I think they will slowly fade away in time.
I hope so too. When I was at the Off the Map conference in November I got to meet Jim Henderson’s friend, Sunil Sardar of Truthseekers, an inter-religious Christian organization working for justice among the Dalits. He had some interesting stories to tell about the oppression that still occurs over there – as well as some of the proactive resistance efforts that Truthseekers and others are a apart of. I agree that caste will likely fade away in time, though, as with racial issues in this country, it is a slow process and old prejudices die hard. I imagine it will take several generations for these deeply ingrained patterns to completely disappear.
In the meantime, I’m grateful for friends like Sunil who continue to fight for justice in the name of Jesus, whose own mission tore down barriers of race, gender, social class/caste, and religion.