Friendly Atheist

Here’s no 11:

Islam is craaaazy.

I think I agree with all of them except #5. I should be offended because someone else doesn’t believe in God? Someone else is going to be offended because I do? I’m sorry, but that’s just stupid.

I take issue with (1): OK so you can do bad in the name of atheism - the recent Finnish school shooting showed this. However if that is granted, then I could profess to do bad in the name of anything.

I essentially agree with Stephen Weinberg on this. I like to alter his famous quote as follows:

“With or without belief in the irrational, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes belief in the irrational.”

I think “irrational beliefs” is more accurate than “religion” - again, as the Finnish shooter shows. However, I believe that religion is the greatest source of irrational beliefs out there.

-Tim

Tim,

“With or without belief in the irrational, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes belief in the irrational.”

What about evil people doing good things? In my opinion, I don’t think “things” and “deeds” are a credible indicator of whether a person is good or bad.

I have a theory that evil comes from a place of shame, which hurts the pride. My first post on my thinking blog is about this theory. I only came to this realization after I had an experience where my good intentions turned into hate and I became the face of evil. I think I will write about that experience if I can conjure up enough courage to be completely honest. I will try to do it for you.

Here’s no 11:

Islam is craaaazy.

No doubt.

Words often fail me. And my grammar fails me also… The OCD in me hates that to no end. Would it help if I told you English is my second language? (not that it justifies bad grammar…)

I posted this poem on my other blog (my more personal one) which I wrote a while back, after I was rejected and dismissed by a Christian blog who claimed to be liberals. I pretty much get rejected by both sides. Hmm… go figure!

I’ve been there, done that, Linda, and one side may yell, “You’re an atheist!” or something to that affect and the other side may say something else that pushes me the other way. It’s generally the militant ones that start pushing me back an forth like I’m a 1/2 breed or something. Sometimes you just have to look back and laugh.

Humm… I wonder what would happen if we started of the blog personal conversation. An open and honest one. Just how much do you and I agree? I don’t think you and I would start shoving each other in directions we are not though, just by looking at your comments.

I’m sure Hemant could arrange it, if you like. He has my permission to give you my email addy if you don’t have it already.

I also disagree with 5 “Your Point of View is Legitimately Offensive to Them.”

I’m not offended by the Christian point of view (though I disagree with it) - beliefs do not offend me, but actions based upon those beliefs can be offensive and harmful. There is a difference, and it’s why the 1st ammendment is so important - freedom of religion concurrent with freedom from a state-established religion.

“Huh? What else is there to determine whether a person is good or bad?”

Take the lid off and take a smell.

[...] posted this list. For all the FriendlyAtheist.com subscribers, please forgive the double [...]

Pretty awful list.
I just want to add that #2 may or may not be true, but in the context of things we can agree on it is obviously false. Clearly theists don’t agree that atheists really believe there is no god or we wouldn’t have phrases like “there are no atheists in foxholes” or “why are you angry at god?”.
And atheists generally disagree also. I doubt many atheists think (christian) theists really believe the proper punishment for a child who talks back to his parents is to stone him to death.

Maybe you can be a “poster” on it . And what a beautiful poster you will be! I have someone else in mind, also. We can think together as we’ve never thunk before… I believe there’s no such thing as “thinking too much.” I would be honored to have you, as well as anyone else who wants to join me!

That would be cool.

I’m not sure what good things religion has brought.

Well, I know of a school in Haiti that I’m going to help build next week that wouldn’t be getting built if it weren’t for my religion.

Mike C,

I’m not trying to attack you. I’m just calling it the way I see it. Not you, in particular, but religion as a whole. Please don’t take it personally.

1. You Can Do Terrible Things in the Name of Either One

You can do terrible things as a member of either one.

Honestly, there’s not much motivating force for action in atheism as a bare bones stance on a question; see #9.

However, you can, rightly or wrongly, use the Bible to do justify a lot of bad things. Though, I’d say there are things that really can’t be justified by the Bible that some people might try. Some Xians really aren’t Scottsmen. It’s not always a fallacy.

2. Both Sides Really Do Believe What They’re Saying

Perhaps. Usually.

3. In Everyday Life, You’re Not That Different

The internal world is very different. But, how and what we feel isn’t.

4. There Are Good People on Both Sides

No argument.

5. Your Point of View is Legitimately Offensive to Them

The idea that I will someday burn in Hell unless I buy into some people’s interpretation of the Bible is very offensive.

The thought that a xian’s deepest held belief is something irrational and worthy of mocking is also very offensive.

Yup, I agree. These POVs are legitimately offensive to each other.

6. We Tend to Exaggerate About the Other Guy

I don’t. But, those OTHER atheists are always blabbing.

7. We Tend to Exaggerate About Ourselves, Too

No, again.

8. Focusing on Negative Examples Makes You Stupid

Yet, everbody still does it.

9. Both Sides Have Brought Good to the Table

Depends, are we talking about people or the concepts? Xianity motivates masses of people to cooperate in charitable giving.
Atheism sets people’s minds free. From there it’s up to the individual atheist. Many are humanists, but that’s not atheism and nothing about atheism leads inexorably to humanism.

10. You’ll Never Harass the Other Side Out of Existence

But, what about all my plans? I’ve got charts and diagrams and schematics; this one will work!
No?
OK.

Linda,

Daniel Dennett says that it is his opinion most religious people do not really believe in God; they just believe in the belief in God. And from my experience with other Christians, I agree with him.

I don’t think that’s true, I’d like a sourced quote from him saying that. Dennett has said that there are more people who believe in belief in God than who believe in God. That includes the people who genuinely believe in God, inherently they’re going to believe in belief in God.

Hitchens said some to the effect that a lot of people who say they believe, do not. Something like, paraphrasing, “I go to the centre of towns on a sunday morning, and people aren’t in church”.

Others have said, I think one of them on the Colbert Report, about people not believing in evolution but believing in vaccinations. There’s probably more cases where stated beliefs are ignored, or changed to fit circumstances, implying that they’re not geniune.

Aj,

I don’t think that’s true, I’d like a sourced quote from him saying that.

I’ll do better than that. Straight from the horse’s mouth.

Mike C,

I seriously doubt that religion is building the school as much as the (perceived) love in the hearts of the people who are involved. And if you’re doing it because religion tells you it’s the right thing to do, then you have to ask youself if your heart’s really in the right place.

As I’ve said before, good things can come out of selfish intentions.

Linda, do you have any personal experience as a religious person or have you always been an atheist? I ask only because your options seem a little overly simplistic - like you don’t really know what it’s like on the “inside”. It’s not simply a matter of being good, loving people; nor is it simply a matter of being “told” to do it by our religion. The question is how did we come to be good, loving people who would care enough about global poverty and injustice to go and sacrifice in these ways in the first place? Many people are good, loving people who still do not raise a finger to help those in extreme poverty. And many people are not so good or loving, and are really pretty much only concerned with their own comfort and security and that’s about it. So the question is what did it take to get people from a place of apathy and inaction to a place of compassion and service?

And the answer in this particular case at least is in fact religion. It was not a matter of simply saying “God commands you to do this”. More fundamentally it was a process of heart transformation - of helping people go through a process of reshaping their values and passions and convictions, helping to actually become the kind of good and loving people who will actually do something to help people in need.

And it’s also a matter of educating people about the needs, and then of giving them the opportunities to do something about them. This group I’m going with, New Life for Haiti, was created from scratch by a pastor friend of mine, and in the course of 1 year we’ve raised nearly $70,000 and sent multiple work trips to Haiti. It’s a lot of work to pull off though for only a few small partner churches. Where does that energy and passion come from? I can tell you that in this particular case it comes directly from the kind of heart transformation that was caused by our Christian faith. It comes from learning to see the world through the eyes of Christlike compassion, and seeing fellow human-beings as the beautiful, sacred, divine image-bearers that our faith tells us they are. And it comes from catching a vision of the way the world could and should be - a place of justice, compassion, generosity, peace, and love - what Jesus called the “kingdom of God”, and being inspired and empowered to actually work towards making that vision a reality.

And the bottom line is that none of this, none of it, would have happened without the impetus of our Christian faith. No heart transformation, no New Life for Haiti, and no school. When you subtract the religion out of the equation, you’ve subtracted pretty much the whole thing. Without it, most of us would still be sitting in our McMansions out here in the suburbs watching Desperate Housewives and living lives of contented, purposeless apathy - because honestly, that’s what most of us were doing before God got a hold of us.

Mike C,

Religion might have been the catalyst for personal change for you and others involved in that group. But in the end you are doing this, presumably, because you are good people and this is a good thing to do.

If you entire group decided suddenly that there wasn’t a god, would you really cancel the project and spend that $70,000 on fancy clothes, electronics, and drugs?

Surely there is nothing wrong with wanting to actualize the “vision of the way the world could and should be - a place of justice, compassion, generosity, peace, and love.” There is nothing particularly religious about that either, even if - for you - that vision was inspired by Jesus.

I wonder though if there is a catch. Does part of your budget include providing crosses or bibles for the school? Is there any sort of religious instruction to be held there? Are these people selling their souls for the education this school would provide?

How many people in this organization are participating because of the desire to spread Jesus’ word? Are they secretly (or subconsciously) participating because they think doing this sort of thing is their ticket to heaven. In other words, are people doing this for the poor kids in Haiti, or for themselves. And yes, I know people who are “charitable” because it gives them a sense of moral/spiritual superiority.

The last two paragraphs are examples of what this project could be like if it is being done in the name of religion. I’m not at all saying that your project is doing any of these negative things, I’m just trying to show a distinction between things being done in the name of goodness and things being done in the name of religion.

I just don’t want anyone feeling insulted because they are misunderstood.

If you entire group decided suddenly that there wasn’t a god, would you really cancel the project and spend that $70,000 on fancy clothes, electronics, and drugs?

I don’t know Tao. That’s such an unlikely scenario that I couldn’t really speculate what would happen. However, I can guarantee that if none of us had been motivated by our religion in the first place that is exactly the kind of thing we’d be spending our money on - because that is exactly the kind of thing we we’re spending our money on before we got passionate about this thing called the kingdom of God.

The back story here is that the church which initiated this project has recently gone from being a typical inward-focused suburban “consumer” church - i.e. come and get your personal “God-fix” every Sunday and that’s it - to being a very outward focused, service oriented church in the space of a few years. Prior to that shift most of the church members were living very self-obsessed, materialistic suburban lifestyles - like most of us out here in the Chicago ‘burbs to be honest. It wasn’t until the pastor and the elders suddenly caught a vision for this “kingdom” thing that things started to change. Many people who just wanted “consumer church” left, but the ones who stayed have been radically transformed and have done some amazing things, not just in Haiti, but in their own communities as well, especially among the Latino immigrant populations. Similar transformations have happened among my own church members as well.

So yeah, I can’t say what would happen if they suddenly stopped believing in God, but I can say that it was a religiously inspired passion that sparked this whole thing off in the first place. We could argue all kinds of counterfactuals, but the reality in this particular case is that religion was the impetus for good things happening in the world, which really is my only point.

I wonder though if there is a catch. Does part of your budget include providing crosses or bibles for the school? Is there any sort of religious instruction to be held there? Are these people selling their souls for the education this school would provide?

Nope, no catch. It’s not going to be a religious school. There’s no bibles, no crosses, no sermons.

How many people in this organization are participating because of the desire to spread Jesus’ word? Are they secretly (or subconsciously) participating because they think doing this sort of thing is their ticket to heaven. In other words, are people doing this for the poor kids in Haiti, or for themselves.

That’s not the kind of theology our churches teach. In fact, I know very few churches anywhere that teach that you can get a “ticket to heaven” for doing good works. This is a common atheist misunderstanding in my experience. In Christian circles that kind of theology is known as “works based salvation” and is generally rejected by most churches (though there are exceptions). Most Christians believe that salvation is a free gift. No earning involved. The good works are simply the outcome of salvation, what we do because we’ve been “saved”. Or, as we put it at my church, we “transform people to transform the world” - not the other way around.

I’m sorry Linda. I didn’t mean to offend. Like I told Mriana, I no longer have the time to read everything that goes on here at Hemant’s blog. You’re right, I should have familiarized myself with your story before making assumptions.

And I certainly don’t think going to Haiti makes me “more righteous” in any way. That was not my point at all. My only point was that my faith was what brought about the transformation in my life (heart, mind, spirit, soul, all of it) that has given me the desire to even go to Haiti in the first place. The statement made in this thread, by you and by others, was that religion hasn’t brought anything good to the table. I brought up this life transformation and this project in Haiti simply as examples to the contrary.

How strange. I tried to edit my comment to say that Mike already answered my question, which I would have realized had I reloaded my page, but it marked my edit as spam and then refuse to load my comment again to be reedited. So… again, Mike, I realize you already answered my question.

It’s all well and good to suggest that we could still do it without God, but again, that’s a counterfactual.

Are you saying you couldn’t have done it without god? How sad. Other people seem to manage. Here’s an example, an article about a man named Aaron Jackson who seems to have done a whole lot of good in Haiti. And look, I seen no mention of religion, either in this article or on the website for his organization, and when asked, he says he is not religious. Yet somehow, he’s making the world a better place. One of the things I admire most about him is that he didn’t just decide to go give people what he thought they needed, he saw how these kids were living and is addressing the most urgent needs first. He’s also doing it in a very efficient and cost-effective way, and not wasting any of the money that is donated, which is not all that common. When he ran out of savings and the orphanages were costing too much money, he gave up his apartment and started sleeping in a homeless shelter. Tell me again about the McMansions?

Nope, no catch. It’s not going to be a religious school. There’s no bibles, no crosses, no sermons.

On the website for “New Life for Haiti” I found this statement: “New Life for Haiti will be sending teams to the village of Marfranc to help the church there to complete its primary school building, and to build a secondary school building.” This makes the above statement seem a bit disingenous - if the school is owned and run by the church, it seems less than credible that it will be completely secular as you implied. Plus, the website says elsewhere that “New Life for Haiti also plans on assisting local churches, as well as starting new churches where needed”, so the organization IS spending part of the money on proselytizing rather than helping, which someone asked about but didn’t get a direct answer.

Perhaps New Life for Haiti will actually helps some people there, maybe not, but PlantingPeace.org has already helped a whole lot of people in Haiti, out of simple human decency and kindness. Religion has no monopoly on good hearts.

MIKE C
Well, I know of a school in Haiti that I’m going to help build next week that wouldn’t be getting built if it weren’t for my religion.

CARR
In the Bible , you will find many , many pages of instructions on how to make soft furnishings for an Ark.

But there is nothing whatever about building a school.

Religion has no monopoly on good hearts.

Can I hear an “Amen?”

Polly,

BTW - What language do you speak, if you don’t mind me asking?

I was going to tell you a story about how I’m always rejecetd when I reveal my true self, but you have shown me that you are not one of “them.”

I have changed my identity at least three times in the last two months from being humiliated and shamed for being who I am. An atheist stuck with me through the whole thing and remained my friend. He’s the only reason I am here in the first place.

So… I will trust you and show you who I am. Come and meet me on my blog later. I’ll post something there.

Linda,

I’ll do better than that. Straight from the horse’s mouth.

Daniel Dennett, Atheist Tapes,

I think most people who say they believe in God, at- you know, most people in the West who say they believe in God actually believe in belief in God. I don’t even believe in belief in God. That is they believe that belief in God is a really good thing.

Most people (not religious), in the West, who say they believe in God, actually believe in belief in God.

Yep! What she said! (****) that’s a picture of my applause!

It’s all well and good to suggest that we could still do it without God, but again, that’s a counterfactual.

Are you saying you couldn’t have done it without god?

No Claire, that’s not what I was saying. That’s not what I said. I said it was a “counterfactual”. A counterfactual is when someone posits a hypothetical situation that is not in fact what happened. So we probably could have done it without God (as you pointed out, some people do), but the fact is that we didn’t. We in fact did it because of our faith. Which again, was my only point - that good things sometimes do come from religion.

On the website for “New Life for Haiti” I found this statement: “New Life for Haiti will be sending teams to the village of Marfranc to help the church there to complete its primary school building, and to build a secondary school building.” This makes the above statement seem a bit disingenous - if the school is owned and run by the church, it seems less than credible that it will be completely secular as you implied. Plus, the website says elsewhere that “New Life for Haiti also plans on assisting local churches, as well as starting new churches where needed”, so the organization IS spending part of the money on proselytizing rather than helping, which someone asked about but didn’t get a direct answer.

We are partnering with local organizations over there because we want this to be a Haitian-directed project, not just outside charity. However, the reality is that in many of these regions the church is the only viable organization on the ground to work with. They are the ones building schools, and clinics, and roads, and wells. If we want to do these things, then that’s who we have to work with.

But it’s not an exclusively religious school. It’s a school for all the children that are able to come. And none of our money is going for things like bibles or crosses. It’s going for bricks and mortar and tools and equipment. And no one on my trip is going to prosyletize.

But yes, there is a long term goal of planting new churches, though none of our effort or money has gone towards that yet. As a church planter myself I have no problem with that. It’s not like we’re making church attendance a pre-condition for the other good things we’re doing or forcing people to listen to us preach before we’ll help them. We’re building the schools and clinics and all that regardless, because of a love for the Haitian people. And if we later want to initiate some churches who have a similar passion for this kind of active love and service towards others that our churches are engaged in, then I have no problem with that. There is nothing coercive about it. We are simply seeking to serve and love people, and then also inviting them to come help us serve and love others too. To me that’s the definition of church planting.

Mike C.

We in fact did it because of our faith. Which again, was my only point - that good things sometimes do come from religion.

Yes, good things do come from religion. But people made that religion. And good things come from people who are made in the image of God, so I guess, yes, it is true. But even if you took religion out of it, if you should happen to convert to atheism today, you would still do that same good thing out of the goodness of your heart. Religion does not make you good. You are good already. Religion just makes you think that you have to stay within its boundaries in order to be loved by God. It’s not true. That is Egyptian thinking (Old Testament).

I think we’re addicted to religion. No one wants to be free, because freedom is scary. We want a set of rules to go by to keep ourselves in check. We check off the boxes and compare ourselves to the next person. It’s a way to feel good about ourselves and judge others.

Jesus came to free us from religion. Haven’t you read your Bible? But no one wants to turn away from the religion. That’s why they had to kill him. Step back and take a good look at the big picture. Insert Christianity in place of the Pharisees and the Jewish religion. Insert atheism in place of Gentiles and the Pagans. Can you see it? God is offering love and freedom to those who are open to receiving them, because the very people who he called upon have closed their eyes and ears to his true nature, which is LOVE. They shout “love” but they act out “religion.” They shout “grace” but they act out “condition.” They shout “freedom” but they act out “bondage.”

God is not a he or a she. God is LOVE. Christ is not some phantom person running around. He is GRACE. Holy Spirit is not some supernatural hallucination. It is FREEDOM to be our creative sevles in all of our fullness. When we let go of all (everything) that holds us down, the universe is at our disposal. Religion exists in places other than just church. It permeates our lives to keep us in bondage. Have you read my post titled “Freedom in Thought?” I’d love to hear your disagreements.

If you look away from religion, open your MIND, and read closely what is written in the scripture, you will see so much of the truth. He shows it to us in bits and pieces, but I can definitely see it. That’s why I know it’s the truth. God is the master of metaphors. The Bible was never meant to be taken literally. It makes no sense when you look at it through religion.

No 5. is unsurprisingly controversial.

The Christian faith, if it’s message is properly understood is extremely offensive. It demands we accept that we are not ‘nice people,’ but every one of us has major ‘issues’ and we’re not as ‘nice’ as we like to think.

I, for example, am not as ‘good’ as a lot of people I know might think I am. I have my own sins that I perpetrate and it’s up to me to look to God for help. There is no other way I can face these challenges

To accept this I have to get past my ego which seeks to reject this truth. Only in humility can one truly become a Christian, I know I personally am lacking.
Christianity would more easily acceptable if it was just about following rules and being saved that way, the reality is it’s not about us and all about God and what he has done. It’s more about the inner person than the outward appearance.

Yes, good things do come from religion. But people made that religion. And good things come from people who are made in the image of God, so I guess, yes, it is true.

Linda, if I may, just what is the image of God? Something to think about, which started with Bishop Spong- God is a human concept.

Excuse me for a minute, while I go out in left field- so to speak- of non-realism. Let’s look at it from science for a moment. We are made up of chemicals, all of them found in the earth, even the universe. I do not believe in a metaphysical or supernatural deity, esp one that is humanoid. So, what if, since we are made up of chemicals found in the earth and upon our death we are “recycled” back into the earth (remember you are dust and dust you shall return), god is really a chemical (or many chemicals) much like oxygen or part of the universe much like the wind and science has yet to discover it? Could it be theoretically possible that “ruach” is actually all the chemicals that make up the universe and we just don’t see IT for the trees?

Cremation speeds up the process of turning us into fertilization for like say oh- roses for example. Bare with me please before you start getting excited. IF as it says in the Gospel of Thomas saying 3:

Jesus said, “If those who lead you say, ‘See the Kingdom is in the sky,’ then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, ‘It is in the sea,’ then the fish will precede you. Rather, the Kingdom is inside you, and it is outside you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living Father. But if you will not know yourselvers, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that proverty.

Sayng 77:

Jesus said, “It is I who am the light which is above them all. It is I who am the All. From Me did the All come forth, and unto Me did the All extend. Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find Me there.”

I won’t go into other similar philosophies, but the Tao comments on there being “something” out there in nature, but we don’t know what it is. Then Brahma is in everything, but it is not the thing. The list goes on and on.

If you think about it, maybe god has no more form or mass then oxygen and is some sort of chemical or several chemicals, just as we are. Maybe the “kingdom of heaven” is here and within us, but we have developed a concept of god that is unreal and supernatural.

This idea changes everything about religion. It turns it into a philosophy and also metaphor for what we are as human beings. Yes, I will agree, God is Love. I will not argue that point, IF you are throwing out everything that is within religion as complete literalism, but think of all the chemicals in the human mind that are triggered when we feel love. The stimuli that triggers these chemicals in the brain maybe as simple as a hug from a child. The chemical interations between the two forms could very well be just that- chemical interations between the “deity” within us. Think of atoms acting and reacting as they bump into each other, yet form a whole of something else.

It may sound far fetched, esp with the use of religious words, but it is something I have pondered for years as I study various religious texts. Maybe our ancient ancestors did not know what IT was and attributed to the supernatural and we have clung to those beliefs, despite scientific discovery, that we are missing that “something”, there by attributing things to a metaphysical deity that does not exist. In which case, whatever IT is that we preceive when we feel the emotions of transcendence or nature does a number on us, may not be any god at all, but merely that which is many to create a whole. Just nature at it finest and humans have just anthropomorphasized it.

Yes, I have an unusual thought process, but hopefully it is not too hard to follow and you can “see” what I am thinking in your mind.